The Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

How can Jehovah's Witnesses be the "one true church" if they themselves make mistakes and revise their doctrine, dogma and practices?

Exhibit a) before the NWT (New World Translation) of the Bible was published, Jehovah's Witnesses used the American Standard Version (ASV). Both translations honor the name of Jehovah but there are stark differences.

The NWT is the only translation (that I know of) which has Jesus "impaled on a stake" instead of crucified on a cross, as virtually every other translation posits.

The first volume of the NWT was originally released in 1950.

How can JWs be the "only true church" if it was evolving, fallible and subject to revision?

And exhibit b) how can JWs be the only true church with dimly supported and strange doctrines such as the belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before the Nativity?

Exhibit c) How can the JWs be the only true church if they falsely predicted that Jesus would return in 1914?

And when that return did not materialized, they revised their prediction and now conveniently claim his return was "invisible".

"One true Church" or fringe sect?

[postroad]

[Replying to 2timothy316]
The Bible predicts a visible return to earth. You folks insist he returned invisible. Why should I believe your interpretation ? As to the statistics, I could point out that never in the history of humanity have as many people been as well fed, housed and clothed as today. It's just statistics.

"So short a time ago as 1870 we saw, in addition to the first principles of the Gospel, only the two bare facts - the Lord's second coming and the Restitution - and these but vaguely; for though we then saw restitution taught in Scripture, we were much in doubt as to its comprehensiveness, questioning often whether it would include all the billions of the dead whom the god of this world had in the present life blinded. And concerning the Lord's second coming, while we realized that he is no longer a man, but is now the new creature--the express image of the Father's person-- a quickening spirit, yet we failed somehow to make a proper application of this to his second coming, and unthinkingly and ignorantly, rather expected his coming to be as a glorified man, than as a spiritual being. It was not until about 1874 that these things became clearer, so that we realized that when Jesus should come, it would be as unobserved by human eyes as though an angel had come; and that it could be known only by some miracle, by some manifestation or demonstration....
Next our attention was drawn to the subject of the TIME of our Lord's coming. Before this we had strenuously ignored time, partly because of its being made so much of by "Second Adventists," and because of the frequent failures of their expectations. Moreover, the fact that they claimed the destruction of the world to be the impending event, and used the periods of time mentioned in Scripture to mark the time of that destruction, was another reason why we were disposed to ignore the subject of time. Their erroneous theory of the destruction of the world cast discredit on the time which they associated with it.
When, however, the manner of our Lord's coming was seen in the light of what he is--a spiritual, and no longer a human being--then we saw that our Father had provided TIME in the Bible, that thus we might know, or see with the eye of our understanding, what we could not see with our natural eyes-- viz., the Lord's presence. A careful study of times and seasons taught in Scripture convinced us that the Lord was due to be present in 1874, and other time teachings of the Word showed that in the spring of 1875 the restitution of all things was due to commence." Zion's Watch Tower 1883 Aug p.1

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]
The Bible predicts a visible return to earth.

No it doesn't. "John 14:19: A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live. (Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)

You folks insist he returned invisible. Why should I believe your interpretation ?

Well, if you believe the Bible then believe John 14:19.

As to the statistics, I could point out that never in the history of humanity have as many people been as well fed, housed and clothed as today. It's just statistics.

Those that are fed, housed or clothed are not the stats the Bible said to be on the look out for as 'signs of the presence of the Son of Man'.

Is this your point of view? "Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creations beginning. If it is that is another piece of evidence to add along with the 'pangs of distress' that Jesus is ruling now and these are the last days. You're fulfilling Bible prophecy and for further evidence you're taking no note of it.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 61 by postroad]

The Bible predicts a visible return to earth.

Please, chapter and verse or verses, and, if necessary, any relevant comment on this.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 62 by 2timothy316]

Why are you equating the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentechaust with Jesus's second coming in glory?

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
You have said so, Jesus replied. But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62
I am, said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven
Revelation 1:7

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Didn't Paul have a warning about this?

1 Corinthians 15:12-14New International Version (NIV)

The Resurrection of the Dead

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

[Pierac]

Just to clarify, my point is not to suggest that the JWs have no value as an organization, or are evil or deceptive, but rather that they do not, (and no one for that matter), have any grounds to make such and exclusive claim as to being the "only true Church".

The implication being, that every other one is false.

I applaud JWs for teaching love of God and Neighbor..like most every other Christian sect, Judaism and Islam too for that matter!

And isn't that unifying teaching of love far more important and essential than anything else a given religion teaches in their attempts to differentiate themselves from "the other"?

Pierac

That's part of my point Paul. Please review this post of mine. (#4) I think we are in agreement.

I understood your point... As we are in agreement regarding many of JW's beliefs... However, they do teach truth in some area's.

My point was more about other organized Church's whom also teaches false beliefs in different but important areas. Perhaps even you could believe a corporate church lie not unlike a JW and not even know it.... as you assume they also do?

Just a thought... not accusing or say you do! ...yet!

Many never ask why they believe what they believe.... What would a 14 year old Muslim suicide bomber claim... Free will or manipulation of a organized religion?
Did this child would see truth in his eyes... because others told him what to believe? Thus all the death would come from a false truth! And the child knew not the truth... but only what he was told by a corporate church .... how sad that would be for that child to learn the truth!


Paul

Paul, I agree. JWs do teach some good and true things. My point is that NO ONE, no one group and no one individual including myself has a monopoly on the Truth.

And that NO ONE group or individual "owns" God. John 14.6 notwithstanding.

Amen bro... We can only seek what God will show us... there is no monopoly! well spoken from both scripture and truth.

May the God of truth show us the truth... and no longer submit us to the traditions of men!
Paul

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 64 by postroad]

Are you aware of what it means for something to come or go 'in the clouds'?

a cloud caught him up from their vision. (Ac 1:9)

Jesus on a cloud means he will not be able to be seen with the literal eye. There is no literal cloud that Jesus will be seen standing on.

Even while Jesus was on the Earth and could be seen with the literal eye many still couldn't see that Jesus was the Son of God. He even said in Lu 11:29, When the crowds were massing together, he began to say: This generation is a wicked generation; it looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So those looking for some guy on a cloud are going to be disappointed.

[Pierac]

[Replying to post 64 by postroad]

Are you aware of what it means for something to come or go 'in the clouds'?

a cloud caught him up from their vision. (Ac 1:9)

Jesus on a cloud means he will not be able to be seen with the literal eye. There is no literal cloud that Jesus will be seen standing on.

Even while Jesus was on the Earth and could be seen with the literal eye many still couldn't see that Jesus was the Son of God.

Act 1:9 was a poor verse to choose to support your view...

Act 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

So your saying a literal cloud received Him out of their sight... but it's not possible for a literal cloud to received Him into their sight? Just saying/asking... Why?


Paul

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 67 by Pierac]

It was just an explanation that when the Bible uses a 'cloud' in reference to Jesus' return think obscured. Men of Gali-lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky. So his return will be the same as his exit. Obscured. Thus why the angel said, 'why are do you stand looking into the sky' since they will not see him coming from the sky.

When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record, a cloud caught him up from their vision. (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather, the cloud obscured their vision of him. This helps us to understand Jesus words concerning his presence: They will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, and Revelations statement: He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him. (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could see the meaning with their mental eyes. In this case the physical occurrences that are visible would cause the one looking to see or realize that Christ is invisibly present."See also Mt 24; Mr 13; Re 14:14.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 68 by 2timothy316]
So every eye will see him, even those that pierced him. Sounds like they need to be resurrected with seeing eyes. So a resurrection will precede his coming in glory. Or do we have invisible resurrection as well? Furthermore every person will be physically resurected in order for this to happen

Philippians 2:5-11New International Version (NIV)

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death"
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[American Deist]

How can Jehovah's Witnesses be the "one true church" if they themselves make mistakes and revise their doctrine, dogma and practices?

They aren't the "one true church," and there is no "one true Bible." Religions feed off each other, expand and evolve over extended periods of time. They share central themes, but then someone comes along and wants to make some changes. They break away from that particular church, start a new movement it grows from there. Some succeed, some fail.

If God were truly interested in one church; one holy book, then It is taking Its sweet time in getting around to it. There are hundreds of different denominations and dozens of biblical translations. No one has it right.