Messiah's 2nd Coming?

[Elijah John]

Was the doctrine of the 2nd coming of Jesus forumulated because he failed to accomplish Messianic expectations the first time around? I.e., universal peace and justice, the redemption of Israel from it's enemies?

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 55 by onewithhim]

See my post #54.

Yes, and my answer to that is STILL my post #53, which you apparently didn't take seriously.

[onewithhim]

Why would God force people to be His friend and follow His instructions? Jehovah sent His Son so that ALL humans could live. If some humans reject His offer, that is on them.

One of the Roman Emperors wrote notices in very small print and high up. When people ignored them they were punished or fined.

Your God appears to have adopted the same strategy with his "instructions." It is obvious that if God wanted to issue "instructions" he could do it in a way that is beyond dispute. Instead we have bits and pieces of ambiguous text whose authorship doesn't seem to be God's. He didn't sign anything. So please do not talk about people "choosing to ignore" his "instructions." You mean that you have formed your own set of instructions and it is irritating that other folk choose not to follow what you have thought up. Has it occurred to you that you might be wrong?

We have hashed this out before, and I perceive that there is nothing to be gained by going over it again. God's instructions are quite clear to the humble & honest searcher. Texts are "amiguous" when some human erroneously translates them or ADDS something to the text. Most scholars are able to detect what has been added and changed, by intense scrutiny along with consulting the earliest manuscripts available.

I didn't think up anything. What I take as God's instructions were written by dozens of men who were inspired by Him. Those instructions are relevant for all time periods, and if people followed them they would be truly happy.

"The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man." (Eccles.12:13)

"He has told you, O man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?" (Micah 6:8)

"I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea." (Isaiah 48:17,18)


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 59 by JehovahsWitness]

And yet if you don't obey, you go to hell.
Sometimes I wonder if you even read the Bible.

Let me guess, JWs have some special clause in Christianity excluding them from what other Christians need to do to go to heaven, right?

Something about what you believe, that excludes you from doing what the rest of Christianity needs to do?

If you really studied the Bible, you would know that the Bible does not teach a literal hell-fire.

It also does not teach that the ultimate destiny of man is heaven. Someone didn't teach you very well, unfortunately. There is still time to learn the truth. Do you want to know the truth about "hell"? Do you want to understand who it is who will be ruling in heaven and why?


https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Hell


https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... t_index]=4

[marco]

God's instructions are quite clear to the humble & honest searcher.

I assume you mean that Marco is a dishonest and arrogant searcher, then.


Some instructions are clear and some are not. Some passages are lucid and some are not. Experts disagree on some passages. When several interpretations are possible there is no way of deciding which one - if any - is correct. You rely on one group of people to get your instructions - and they are mere interpreters whose qualifications you admire - but in so doing you are NOT following Jehovah, but somebody's idea of what Jehovah might be saying. It sounds good to you and this is the basis for your acceptance: It sounds good. In the question being debated here it is certainly NOT clear what the meaning is and as with Christ's words to the repentant thief I think your interpretation is erroneous and strained.

Your quotations about Jehovah demanding service are of absolutely no relevance here. We are discussing interpretations, not whether people worship. My own view, having heard your arguments, is that in them there are interpretational errors, the result perhaps of placing too much faith in the theological credentials of those who have instructed you. It is so easily done.

[marco]

If you really studied the Bible, you would know that the Bible does not teach a literal hell-fire.

No - he would not KNOW this if he studied the Bible. He would have to make a decision on what is literal and what is metaphor.

Take this from Revelation: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I agree that it is nonsense but what meaning does "for ever and ever" have if not eternal punishment? You think that the person is dipped into fire and dies "for ever and ever" and this oblivion is maybe what hell means. That's NOT what the words say. If studying the Bible leads to that kind of interpretation, perhaps one should study in a different way. In any case, your interpretation is just that - and in this case it seems an inferior one.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 53 by onewithhim]

Of course I didn't take the question seriously!
It is not my religion or place to answer for the motivations of an imaginary creature.
and like Marco said, I was appealing to the greater unconscious of Christianity - Hellfire and Damnation or Clouds and Angels.

You can tell me your personal means for religious coercion if it pleases you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 59 by JehovahsWitness]

And yet if you don't obey, you go to hell.
Sometimes I wonder if you even read the Bible.

Let me guess, JWs have some special clause in Christianity excluding them from what other Christians need to do to go to heaven, right?

Something about what you believe, that excludes you from doing what the rest of Christianity needs to do?

If you really studied the Bible, you would know that the Bible does not teach a literal hell-fire.

It also does not teach that the ultimate destiny of man is heaven. Someone didn't teach you very well, unfortunately. There is still time to learn the truth. Do you want to know the truth about "hell"? Do you want to understand who it is who will be ruling in heaven and why?


https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Hell


https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... t_index]=4

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[onewithhim]

God's instructions are quite clear to the humble & honest searcher.

I assume you mean that Marco is a dishonest and arrogant searcher, then.


Some instructions are clear and some are not. Some passages are lucid and some are not. Experts disagree on some passages. When several interpretations are possible there is no way of deciding which one - if any - is correct. You rely on one group of people to get your instructions - and they are mere interpreters whose qualifications you admire - but in so doing you are NOT following Jehovah, but somebody's idea of what Jehovah might be saying. It sounds good to you and this is the basis for your acceptance: It sounds good. In the question being debated here it is certainly NOT clear what the meaning is and as with Christ's words to the repentant thief I think your interpretation is erroneous and strained.

Your quotations about Jehovah demanding service are of absolutely no relevance here. We are discussing interpretations, not whether people worship. My own view, having heard your arguments, is that in them there are interpretational errors, the result perhaps of placing too much faith in the theological credentials of those who have instructed you. It is so easily done.

No, I wasn't meaning that YOU were dishonest and arrogant. I made a GENERAL statement. It has been said that there are three things a person must be to accept the truth about God: Humble, Honest, and Hungry. (Hungry for truth.)

So you have decided what the reasons are for my acceptance of what I see as the truth about God. You are authorized to state just what has been happening in my mind. I guess I have to take back what I said about me not suggesting you were arrogant.....I fear that you have just shown yourself to be so.

This is where I ride off into the sunset and wish you a pleasant life.


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 67 by Wootah]

My apologies. I didn't realize I was spamming, nor did I realize that I was disparaging anyone beyond what disparagement I receive from others on a regular basis.

I thought I was just adding solid information to further the discussion.

I will keep trying to fine-tune my cooperation.

[terrydactyl]

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

If I may add my two cents, After 7 pages I have yet to see the apologists provide a reasonable answer to the original question. Why did he fail the first time?