Jesus' plan of salvation.

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Elijah John
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Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?� 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?� 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.� 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.�
Luke 10.25-28

And this.

Matthew 19.17b
17............... but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.�
Matthew 7.21
"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. ...
And what is the will of our Heavenly Father? Is it not expressed in the "Law and the Prophets"?

And what is the "Law and the Prophets"?

According to Jesus, simply this:
36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.�
Or, to simplify even further:

Matthew 7.12
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


Notice the following.

The Synoptic Jesus does not mention the necessity of being "bloodwashed", or belief in the blood in order to be saved.

Paul does.

The Synpoptic Jesus celebrates the Law as a way to salvation.

Paul, by contrast, considers those who attempt to follow the Law to salvation, accursed.

The Synoptic Jesus does not claim to be the "only way" to God in these passages. The Johannine Jesus does.

For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as does the Jesus of the Synoptics?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #61

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments...
Absolutely, but the entire law, as we know -- because Jesus tells us in Matthew 22:37-40 -- is summed up by two commandments, to love God with everything we have and are and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The law always was, is, and will always be spiritual -- meaning they have to do with the heart -- rather than just a series of "dos" and "don'ts." These "dos" and "don'ts" were adhered to by the Israelites of old because because they were instituted as a tutor that pointed forward to the Real Thing (Jesus). We new Israelites :) no longer need a tutor in the way they did:
  • * "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." [Galatians 3:24-25]
This is the culmination of Paul's exposition concerning the law in this chapter, the outcome of what he said a few verses earlier:
  • "...the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, 'He who practices them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree..." [Galatians 3:12-13]
myth-one.com wrote: As long as there are commandments from God, and beings which can obey or disobey those commandments, the possibility of sin exists.
Well, as long as we remain unglorified -- completely made just like Jesus, which will only be complete when (A) we go Home to be with Him or (B) when He comes back, bringing Home to us, whichever comes first -- the reality of sin will persist.
myth-one.com wrote: There would be no mankind if the angels on the earth had not rebelled in the first place...
Nothing has ever taken or will ever take God by surprise. He is completely sovereign over His creation and is in control. This has always been and forever will be true.
myth-one.com wrote: Natures can change.
Sure, temporally speaking. But the spiritual nature of man with relation to God cannot, unless God, by His Holy Spirit, causes it to happen:
  • * "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." [Ezekiel 36:26-27]

    * "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will..." [Ephesians 1:5]

    * "...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:13]

    * "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." [1 Peter 1:3-5]
myth-one.com wrote: Do you believe that Jesus did not have any choice but to obey God?
Interesting question. But it's misguided, really. I guess I would answer that this way, that in Jesus's mind and heart, there was no question He was going to obey the Father. We see this in Gethsemane when He prays, "...not as I will, but as You will.� So yes, He could have not obeyed the Father, but no, this was never a question in His mind. He was always going to obey the Father -- He could do no other.

Having said this, I know that Jesus, being God made man, was tempted in every way as we are, yet perfectly resisted all temptation (Hebrew 4:14-15) -- because He is God in the flesh -- and thereby reconciled us to God the Father by His blood.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

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Post #62

Post by myth-one.com »


Myth-one.com wrote:There would be no mankind if the angels on the earth had not rebelled in the first place:
JehovahsWitness wrote:Why do you thus conclude?
==============================================
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is the only description in Genesis of the original creation.

Verse two then describes the earth as without form, void, and dark:
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Either God created the earth without form, void, and dark; or it was created good and came to be formless, void, and dark for some reason.

A few pages later, God states that everything He created was indeed "very good":
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)
Therefore, God created the earth as "very good" in the original creation described in verse 1, and it later came to be formless, void, and dark.

=====================================================

Some translations of the original Hebrew text support the idea that something occurred and the earth had reached this state. For example, the New International Version® of the Bible renders the same verses as follows:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty; darkness was over the surface of the deep... (Genesis 1:1-2)
That is, God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark.

Notice that only the earth had become without form, void, and dark. The "heaven" remained in good condition as it was created.

What happened to cause the earth to reach this chaotic state?

Who (if anyone) was responsible?

The devil (or Satan, Lucifer, the snake, etc) presently rules over the earth:
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased. Jesus' immediate response was:
Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)
Once God makes a covenant, or testament, or promise, He always keeps it. Satan was given rule over the earth. Although he rebelled against his creator, God did not and will not violate the agreement. Satan was given rule over the world and a ruler must be defeated and overthrown! This is one of the reasons Jesus will return to the earth, to defeat Satan.

Other angels were also assigned to the earth under the command of Satan.

At sometime between the first two verses of the Bible, Satan decided to rebel against God. The ultimate results of his rebellion and sin are the conditions of chaos described on the earth in verse two.

Why did he rebel? It was a simple grab for power:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)
=====================================================

The following "creation" described in detail beginning in Genesis 1:3 is actually a re-creation of a decimated earth originally created "good" in verse one. This re-creation can be traced back to approximately 6,000 years ago. This idea that the creation described in detail in Genesis is actually a re-creation of a decimated earth is supported by other scripture verses:
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they (mankind) are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)
So in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth as good. Now the earth had become without form, void, and dark.

In the third verse of the Bible, God performs the most obvious and logical first step in re-creating the earth. He turns the lights back on:
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)

================================================

Mankind was created "a little lower that the angels" in this re-creation.

There were originally two differences between man and the angels -- knowledge of good and evil and body type.

At present, man is closer to being like the angels because he knows good from evil -- having eaten from the tree of knowledge. The remaining difference is body type, physical versus spiritual. Man was expelled from the Garden of Eden so that he could not eat from the tree of life and live forever!
====================================================

God's purpose for mankind is to create replacements for the angels who failed to fulfill their duties on the earth:
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
Man can become equal unto the angels when born again of the Spirit, as an immortal spiritual being, into the Kingdom of God.

We will then possess the one item which differentiates us from God and the angels -- immortality.

If Satan and angels under his command had not rebelled against God, there would have been no need for mankind.

Man is Plan "B".

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way. Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.
Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labor that I had labored to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 2:11)
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
Last edited by myth-one.com on Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #63

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 56 by brunumb]

"Sounds a lot like wishful thinking or an overactive imagination to me."
  • I understand.
"More laughter, a useless analogy, but no valid explanation."
  • Yes, in your opinion (except for the laughter). Again, I understand.
"Being alive and not having any prior experience of death will not give you any knowledge or understanding of death."
  • I don’t really disagree with this, but that’s beside the point. Being alive, you know that you don’t want to... not have life. Unless you're suicidal, I guess, in which case you want to not have life anymore. Wow.
"Well, no, you haven't got me."
  • Yes, I do understand you. Not completely, because I don’t know you personally. But I understand the human condition.

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Post #64

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 62 by myth-one.com]

myth-one, with all due respect, you have some of the most wacked-out ideas -- about anything, much less the Bible -- I've ever heard. But, you can certainly hold to them if you want; far be it from me to deprive you of any of them. Grace and peace to you.

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Post #65

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: [Replying to post 62 by myth-one.com]

myth-one, with all due respect, you have some of the most wacked-out ideas -- about anything, much less the Bible -- I've ever heard. But, you can certainly hold to them if you want; far be it from me to deprive you of any of them. Grace and peace to you.
Can you be more specific?

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Post #66

Post by marco »

PinSeeker wrote: [Replying to post 62 by myth-one.com]

myth-one, with all due respect, you have some of the most wacked-out ideas -- about anything, much less the Bible -- I've ever heard. But, you can certainly hold to them if you want; far be it from me to deprive you of any of them. Grace and peace to you.
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Post #67

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: [Replying to post 62 by myth-one.com]

myth-one, with all due respect, you have some of the most wacked-out ideas -- about anything, much less the Bible -- I've ever heard. But, you can certainly hold to them if you want; far be it from me to deprive you of any of them. Grace and peace to you.
I understand your frustration at being incapable of challenging any of my "wacked-out ideas" -- which I verified by quoting the scriptures.

Perhaps we should simplify the debate by taking one item at a time.
Genesis 1:1-2 wrote:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Did God create the earth as formless, void, and dark in the beginning?

Or did He create it "good" and it became formless, void, and dark?
=================================================

I do not care what you call me or "my" ideas. If you do it to impress others or it makes you feel better, you have my permission to continue that behaviour.

I believe you do so to dodge issues which you cannot support biblically or logically.

Have a great day!

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Post #68

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: I understand your frustration at being incapable of challenging any of my "wacked-out ideas"...
Not frustration, but rather a bit of shock at said "ideas." Quite frankly, your "understandings" sort of take the breath away.
myth-one.com wrote: ...which I verified by quoting the scriptures.
Right, but coupled with your twisted understanding of said scriptures.
myth-one.com wrote: Perhaps we should simplify the debate by taking one item at a time....
Perhaps not.
myth-one.com wrote:I do not care what you call me or "my" ideas. If you do it to impress others or it makes you feel better, you have my permission to continue that behaviour.
Just trying to get you to see the error of your ways (beliefs), myth-one. That's all. I care nothing about impressing others. That seems to be your preoccupation.
myth-one.com wrote: I believe you do so to dodge issues which you cannot support biblically or logically.
I "dodge" no "issue." I avoid debating absurdities... absurd understandings of things biblical or otherwise, because such discussions are endless and pointless, which scripture itself (God) exhorts us, through Paul, to avoid (Titus 3, 1 Timothy 1).
myth-one.com wrote: Have a great day!
Same to you, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

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Post #69

Post by myth-one.com »


PinSeeker wrote:I "dodge" no "issue." I avoid debating absurdities... absurd understandings of things biblical or otherwise, because such discussions are endless and pointless, which scripture itself (God) exhorts us, through Paul, to avoid (Titus 3, 1 Timothy 1).
You're responding to a posting in which I requested one answer:
Myth-one.com wrote:Did God create the earth as formless, void, and dark in the beginning?

Or did He create it "good" and it became formless, void, and dark?
Was my question too absurd?

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Post #70

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Was my question too absurd?
No, I'm responding to a post in which you said something about going "one step at a time," which portends a rehashing of... well, absurdities (though not necessarily initially).

Here's an idea. Why don't you try a little grace from your end? Just say, "Okay, fair enough," and bow out (as I have)? Why cause yourself such angst? Why be a purveyor of endless, fruitless discussion, quarreling and strife?

As Jesus says in Matthew 5:9, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." Right? So, peace, bro. Grace and peace to you.

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