Is the Catholic Church infallible?

[Justin108]

But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?

[tam]

Peace again to you RR,

[Replying to post 58 by RightReason]

Not at all. I have answered your question many times over now and you continue to suggest I would not listen to Christ.

... OVER the RCC. (Mind you, I am certainly not saying that you cannot do this or that you would never do this.) But your current method of testing the inspired expression does not seem to leave much room for you to be able to do this. And if you can question my method, I don't see how you can justify taking issue with me for questioning yours.

Granted, I find your comments on this issue to be contradictory, but you did not address these contradictions when I asked you for clarification.

From the beginning of post 51:


You had said:

This is getting old. You think it sufficient to continue to repeat, we must test the inspired expression, but when I explain that is exactly what I do and the Church teaches you don’t accept our method. When your method is questioned (as I have done numerous times now explaining you couldn’t possibly know if the still small voice you hear comes from Christ or isn’t simply your own thoughts and opinions.)

I responded:

What you just said makes no sense. You claim that I do exactly what you do and exactly what your religion teaches (testing the inspired expressions)... but you are also questioning this method and stating that by it, I cannot possibly know if the 'still small voice' belongs to Christ or to myself? Then how could you know? How could the leaders in your religion know?


Christ SAID that His sheep would listen to His voice. He said that His sheep KNOW His voice. He SAID that His sheep would run from the voice of a stranger. So regardless of whether or not you think I am one of His sheep who hears His voice... how can you say that it is impossible to know His voice?


That is contradicting Christ.

And this is the reason I have to doubt your claims. On one hand you say of course you hear His voice... then on the other hand you say it is impossible to know if it IS His voice... and on the other hand (except now you have too many hands) you say the way in which we are supposed to hear Him is through the "church" (by which you mean the RCC). Then you also say that we would not know what He said except that it is written down or handed down by others. Plus you said that the only way people after Paul learned was to learn from Paul, not from Christ.

Which is it?

How should I reconcile all of this?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam]

.. OVER the RCC. (Mind you, I am certainly not saying that you cannot do this or that you would never do this.) But your current method of testing the inspired expression does not seem to leave much room for you to be able to do this.

Wrong. That is merely your opinion. I already explained how my method points EXACTLY (and quite frankly, Scripturally) to listening to Christ. The perfect example was demonstrated when you claim Jesus alone is the shepherd, but then are unable to explain when Jesus Himself says to Peter, “Feed my sheep�. Is the job of a shepherd not to feed his sheep? I show you the Scriptural evidence for my belief and you continue to hold your hands over your ears shouting, “I follow Jesus alone� even when there is proof, Jesus Himself did not say to only listen to Him. He actually said, “He who hears you, hears me�. But again, you cover your ears and simply repeat, “I follow Jesus alone.�

And if you can question my method, I don't see how you can justify taking issue with me for questioning yours.

That is the problem. I provided all the reasons why I question yours. I showed the Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition that proves yours wrong. You claim to follow Jesus, but when Jesus gives us His Church and says, “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven� and when Jesus reminds us that His Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ you ignore such evidence.

Granted, I find your comments on this issue to be contradictory, but you did not address these contradictions

I addressed what you felt was a contradiction. I pointed out the irony in you claiming I don’t listen to Christ rather to some ‘mere human organization’ to you claiming to be listening to Christ yet having no standard in which to test something against other than your personal interpretation on what you think is Christ. I found it humorous to believe those who listen to Christ’s Church are really just listening to a bunch of mere mortals, not realizing those who claim to be listening to Christ could quite possibly be simply listening to themselves – a mere mortal. I tried to explain that Christ’s Church isn’t simply human, just like Christ Himself, His Church has a divine element.

I questioned how you can point out the perceived illogic in my method without recognizing the actual illogic in yours. I also went on to show how and why my method makes more sense. I showed the proof that Christ established a Church and why He did so. From the beginning, the very first Christians recognized the authority and necessity of Christ’s Church. They took their matters to the Church. They turned to the Church to settle disputes. The Church was where they were to go. This does not take away our personal relationship we are all called to have with Christ, but you refuse to acknowledge this. It is something the early Christians all knew, but you somehow know better. So, again, I have explained many times now why believing in Christ’s Church is NOT a contradiction in believing in Christ.

That is contradicting Christ. And this is the reason I have to doubt your claims. On one hand you say of course you hear His voice... then on the other hand you say it is impossible to know if it IS His voice

Nope. Not what I said at all. It is difficult to hear His voice without a standard to test it against. We can’t test His voice against our own personal interpretation of this voice we think we are hearing. We must test ‘the voice’ against Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, exactly as we have been commanded to do. I explained in detail in previous posts how I would take the matter to a trusted spiritual director who would in turn see if ‘the voice’ was in keeping with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. But you ignore my very detailed and logical explanation and claim, “you listen to the RCC over Christ.� That is a false statement. That is your statement – not mine.

you said that the only way people after Paul learned was to learn from Paul, not from Christ.

Which is it?

I never said that. That again would be your take on what I said.

You fail to understand that just because one thing is true does not mean something else can’t be true as well. You are quick to claim contradiction, but fail to understand truth. If Jesus says, “Hear me� and then says, “Hear the one I sent� it is NOT a contradiction. I take both truths, because they are just that – true.

How should I reconcile all of this?

Take your hands out of ears, take it to your prayer life and actually try to hear the words of Christ. Knowing our human nature, He gave us a beautiful earthly guide – take advantage of it.

[Tcg]

But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically?

Of course not, humans hadn't invented it yet.

Is the Catholic Church infallible?

Of course not, nothing nor anybody is.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Tcg]

RightReason wrote:


But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically?



Of course not, humans hadn't invented it yet.

The Church was established when Christ said, “thou art Peter . . . “ Peter was the first Pope. The Catholic Church can trace her existence back with an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession to Christ Himself appointing Peter as our Pope.

Quote:

Is the Catholic Church infallible?


Of course not, nothing nor anybody is.

Well, if no one is infallible, does that make your statement fallible?

I am afraid it is your opinion that nothing or no one is infallible. Many disagree with your opinion.

[Tcg]

The Church was established when Christ said, “thou art Peter . . . “ Peter was the first Pope. The Catholic Church can trace her existence back with an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession to Christ Himself appointing Peter as our Pope.

The Catholic Church can claim anything it wants. That doesn't make it true.

Well, if no one is infallible, does that make your statement fallible?

Not in this case. The fact that I am not infallible, doesn't mean everything I say is fallible. Some things may be, but not all are and certainly this is not.

I am afraid it is your opinion that nothing or no one is infallible. Many disagree with your opinion.

If your are right, all you've shown is that many disagree with my opinion.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam]

.. OVER the RCC. (Mind you, I am certainly not saying that you cannot do this or that you would never do this.) But your current method of testing the inspired expression does not seem to leave much room for you to be able to do this.

Wrong. That is merely your opinion. I already explained how my method points EXACTLY (and quite frankly, Scripturally) to listening to Christ.

Your explanations are what led me to my opinion.

The perfect example was demonstrated when you claim Jesus alone is the shepherd, but then are unable to explain when Jesus Himself says to Peter, “Feed my sheep�.

You seem not to be reading my posts carefully.

You said this:

Peter was appointed as the shepherd and we are the sheep.

I responded:

Peter was never appointed as THE shepherd.

Christ is THE Shepherd.

We are HIS sheep. Peter is one of His sheep as well.

Please note the emphasis on the word THE.


But more importantly, please note Christ's own words, because His are the words that matter, yes?

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don’t belong to him and he isn’t their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. The hired hand runs away because he’s working only for the money and doesn’t really care about the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with ONE SHEPHERD.


His words. Not mine.

(And I did explain why Peter was told to 'feed my sheep'. You did not include that explanation in your post and instead said that your way was absolutely the only way to read that scripture. viewtopic.php?p=903627#903627 )

Is the job of a shepherd not to feed his sheep?

The sheep belong to Christ. The sheep do not belong to Peter.

"Feed MY sheep."

I show you the Scriptural evidence for my belief and you continue to hold your hands over your ears shouting, “I follow Jesus alone� even when there is proof, Jesus Himself did not say to only listen to Him. He actually said, “He who hears you, hears me�. But again, you cover your ears and simply repeat, “I follow Jesus alone.�

Scriptural evidence such as these?

"Come, follow Me," [Jesus] said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink."


Just in case you think that only applied to the apostles or disciples at that time:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey ALL that I have commanded you. Matt 28:19,20

And how about these:

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."


Emphasis there on ANYONE and WHOEVER.

viewtopic.php?p=899752#899752


And this one:

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

And if you can question my method, I don't see how you can justify taking issue with me for questioning yours.

That is the problem. I provided all the reasons why I question yours.

As I provide with yours.

I showed the Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition that proves yours wrong.

You really haven't.

You claim to follow Jesus, but when Jesus gives us His Church and says, “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven� and when Jesus reminds us that His Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ you ignore such evidence.

The evidence you provide does not support the conclusions that you draw. These verses certainly do not mean the RCC is that Church. But this has been addressed throughout the thread.

Granted, I find your comments on this issue to be contradictory, but you did not address these contradictions

I addressed what you felt was a contradiction.

You actually ignored that entire part of my post.

I pointed out the irony in you claiming I don’t listen to Christ rather to some ‘mere human organization’ to you claiming to be listening to Christ yet having no standard in which to test something against other than your personal interpretation on what you think is Christ.

Christ said:

He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice. They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.�


He said that His sheep know His voice. He said it. I believe Him.

As for testing the inspired expressions (the message itself) I have shared repeatedly what my Lord has taught me:


We must test that message against Christ (His words; His deeds) and against love (since God is love; nothing that comes from Him will be against love), and we can test against scripture as well (always beginning with what Christ is written to have said and done).

I found it humorous to believe those who listen to Christ’s Church are really just listening to a bunch of mere mortals,

You have not even established that the RCC IS that Church. And it is proven - not theorized, but proven - that the RCC did not stand up and teach the truth during events like the inquisition. So hearing them was not hearing Christ; unless you think that Christ taught us to persecute and put on trial and punish, even hand over to be executed... so-called 'heretics' or even ACTUAL heretics?

But this too has already been discussed. You do not answer the questions that I have asked. What can I do about that? I continue to answer yours; you continue to ignore most of mine.

viewtopic.php?p=903433#903433

**

I clipped part of your post here because it is just a summary of what you believe and have posted, and all those things are addressed in the thread. I would prefer to address specifics than general summaries.

That is contradicting Christ. And this is the reason I have to doubt your claims. On one hand you say of course you hear His voice... then on the other hand you say it is impossible to know if it IS His voice

Nope. Not what I said at all. It is difficult to hear His voice without a standard to test it against. We can’t test His voice against our own personal interpretation of this voice we think we are hearing. We must test ‘the voice’ against Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, exactly as we have been commanded to do.

Okay... first... please... PLEASE... quote this command from Christ for me.

Second... you are proving MY point. You say that we must test what we hear against 'sacred scripture and sacred tradition'. When I asked you if you meant 'sacred scripture and sacred tradition' as the RCC interprets and has handed down, you said YES. So the natural conclusion to that is that you would test what YOU hear against the RCC, and if it contradicted the RCC (their teachings, their traditions), you would dismiss it (and you would not believe it could have been Christ to begin with).


Is that a correct or incorrect analysis?

I explained in detail in previous posts how I would take the matter to a trusted spiritual director who would in turn see if ‘the voice’ was in keeping with Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. But you ignore my very detailed and logical explanation and claim, “you listen to the RCC over Christ.� That is a false statement. That is your statement – not mine.

This might be detailed, but it is not logical. It means that you would reject anything (and anyone) that is not in line with 'sacred scripture and sacred tradition' as the RCC teaches.

Is that a correct or incorrect analysis? If it is incorrect, please explain how?

you said that the only way people after Paul learned was to learn from Paul, not from Christ.

Which is it?

I never said that. That again would be your take on what I said.

I'm pretty sure you said it to me, but I could have misread. I'm not going to go searching for it, so I will withdraw until until such a time as I come across it. In the meantime, I will assume that you do not believe this. Do you believe that said people could learn directly from Christ (as Paul did)?

You skipped this part:

and on the other hand (except now you have too many hands) you say the way in which we are supposed to hear Him is through the "church" (by which you mean the RCC). Then you also say that we would not know what He said except that it is written down or handed down by others.

Am I to assume you skipped it because you agree that this part is true?

You fail to understand that just because one thing is true does not mean something else can’t be true as well.

I do not fail to understand this.

You are quick to claim contradiction, but fail to understand truth. If Jesus says, “Hear me� and then says, “Hear the one I sent� it is NOT a contradiction.

I never said something like that was a contradiction.

You are the one saying that a person MUST listen to the Church (by which you mean the RCC, a claim that is neither established nor true) and that one CANNOT listen solely to Christ.


Christ did not teach that.

How should I reconcile all of this?

Take your hands out of ears, take it to your prayer life and actually try to hear the words of Christ.

My Lord is the One I am listening to.




May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"

Which water is holy spirit, poured out by my Lord and Master, Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH.


Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

My Lord is the One I am listening to.

All you provided evidence of so far is that you believe the voice (singular) in your head is that of a dude (if he ever existed) who died +/- 2,000 years ago.

Which water is holy spirit, poured out by my Lord and Master, Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH.

Are you a Rastafarian?

[tam]

May you all have peace!


I think I might take this back to the beginning and the topic of the thread.

Quote]

Rightreason wrote: But it’s in Scripture. “He who hears you, hears me� “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�. The Church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’ – all Scriptural! This IS how we are hear Christ.

Justin asked: Do these verses refer to the Catholic Church specifically? Is the Catholic Church infallible?

[/quote]

There is no reason to believe that these verse refer to the RCC.

"He who hears you, hears me"... is something Christ spoke to the 72 disciples He sent out. (Luke 10:1, 16, 17). It may apply to anyone Christ sends out in His name. But it does not apply to someone (or some group) just because they make that claim. There are also false christs (false anointed ones) and false prophets.

Well, let me at least try to help you understand by trying a different approach . . .

Do you agree that those passages are in the Bible

Yes.

and would you agree Christ obviously was giving someone power and authority

Yes.

as well as informing us that His Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Paul is the one who said this. (1Timothy 3:15) Paul also said that Christ is the foundation. 1Corinth 3:11

Would you also agree that for something to be the pillar and foundation of truth it would need to be kept ‘free from error’ at least when it came to teaching/proclaiming matters of faith? If it was capable of erring on matters of faith, then it couldn’t really be considered the foundation of truth, right?

I am not entirely sure what Paul meant by 'pillar and foundation of truth'. He does not say it more than that one time (as far as I recall), and no one else says it at all. Christ states that He is HIMSELF the Truth.

"I am the Truth, the Way, the Life." John 14:6

"Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

My Lord identifies the truth that will set us free with the Son (Himself). He states:


"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36



However, to go with this interpretation (that the church must be free from error, at least in matters of faith and morals): it would disprove the RCC (or any other religion) as being that Church. The RCC taught error during the Inquisition on matters of faith and morals. In fact, the inquisition is based upon their false teaching that apostates or heretics (so-called or actual) should be persecuted, tried, punished.

Because when the apostles learned of those who were claiming to have come from them, but teaching something false, they simply sent out a letter to those who had been misinformed and told them what they had received from holy spirit instead. They did not send out an order to persecute or put on trial or punish (confiscate property, imprison, or execute) those false teachers.

When Christ warned about false apostles and false christs, He said, 'do not listen to them."

He certainly did not teach anyone to persecute, put on trial, confiscate property, imprison and/or execute them.

The apostles followed Christ's teaching in the example we have. The RCC did not.

If someone had wanted to know the truth on this matter, they would not have been able to receive that from the RCC. They would have had to look and listen to Christ.


Which is what God and Christ say we are supposed to be doing: listening to and obeying Christ.

Now let me ask you, how many churches were founded by Christ Himself and existed over 2000 years ago? (Lutherans, Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Quakers, etc none existed 2000 years ago. In fact, some didn’t exist until the 1900’s)

He founded His Church (which is His Body, made of people) beginning with Himself as the cornerstone, and then the apostles, and then all after that whom He called and who came to Him.

None of those religions mentioned existed two thousand years ago. The RCC may be able trace its roots back to around this time; but there were also false christs and false prophets leading the people astray around this time.

And let me ask you, how many churches claim to speak infallibly? (Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, etc all deny they speak infallibly on matters of faith.)

Claiming to speak infallibly and actually speaking infallibly are two different things.

And let me ask you, what good do you think a church would be if we couldn’t be assured it was getting it right?

The RCC cannot be counted upon to get it right. She did not stand up and speak the truth at the time when people were being persecuted and tried and punished (even with death).

Should we shop for churches that fit what we believe to be right?

Of course not. What would be the point in that?

I once tried that. My Lord asked me if I thought something was true because it agreed with me. His question showed me my error at once.

He is the Truth. If we want to know what is true, then He is the One to whom we must listen; follow; holding all things up against the Light, the Truth (Christ Jaheshua).

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to get a sense of these things, and also to hear as the Spirit (Christi) and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


Peace to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Which water is holy spirit, poured out by my Lord and Master, Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH.

Are you a Rastafarian?

[/quote]

No.

I do remember seeing some of Bob Marley's songs in a different light when I realized what he was saying. Phonetically, JAH would be pronounced with the 'y' sound, not the 'j' sound. So I didn't realize who Bob Marley was singing about.




Peace to you!

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 65 by Tcg]

The Catholic Church can claim anything it wants. That doesn't make it true.

Of course. It also doesn’t make it not true. You can claim anything you want as well and seem to do so.

Quote:

Well, if no one is infallible, does that make your statement fallible?


Not in this case. The fact that I am not infallible, doesn't mean everything I say is fallible. Some things may be, but not all are and certainly this is not.

Are you certain? That’s quite an absolute statement coming from an admitted fallible person. You do recognize the irony right?

Quote:

I am afraid it is your opinion that nothing or no one is infallible. Many disagree with your opinion.


If your are right, all you've shown is that many disagree with my opinion.

Mmmm. . . and all you have shown is that you disagree with what I say – quite a conundrum.