What proof can anyone give that Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfull prophecies? If so, what orophecy and how did he fulfill it? Riding into into Jeusalem on an ass proves nothing. Many rode into Jerusalem on an ass. I too could ride in to Jerusalem on an ass. What else ya' got?
Needless to say any evidence MUST be supported by the Hebrew Scriptures
What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophecies
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Avoice
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #61[Replying to post 2 by Checkpoint]
Jesus confirmed Isaiah 53 was about him?
Yes, it is true that it is about him. Because he is a Jew.
Isaiah tells us who the servebt is. It's Israel. And yes Israel us often spoken if in the singular and plural. Example.. in Isaiah it speaks of Israel saying :
Ye are my witnesses and my servent whim I have chosen
Witnesses - plural
Servent- singular
Over and over Isaiah tells us the servent is Israel.
GUESS WHAT THE CHURCH DID? IN ISAIAH 53 WHERE IT SAYS:
"...for the transgression of my people was he stricken"
It doesn't say HE. It says THEY. THEY WERE STRICKEN. But then the church couldn't say it was about Jesus . So they changed it to HE. Pathetic.
It's not about Jesus. Christianity is the religion that has to change the word if God in order for people to believe in it. Some religion ! Has to cheat to win. It has to lie to prove it is the truth. No lie is of the truth.
The servent is Israel. God said so. GOD said so. Read it for yourself. Read what God said. Gear him name his servent. His son. Listen to him...he tells you his son is Israel and Israel is his servent. Don't you believe him?
Jesus confirmed Isaiah 53 was about him?
Yes, it is true that it is about him. Because he is a Jew.
Isaiah tells us who the servebt is. It's Israel. And yes Israel us often spoken if in the singular and plural. Example.. in Isaiah it speaks of Israel saying :
Ye are my witnesses and my servent whim I have chosen
Witnesses - plural
Servent- singular
Over and over Isaiah tells us the servent is Israel.
GUESS WHAT THE CHURCH DID? IN ISAIAH 53 WHERE IT SAYS:
"...for the transgression of my people was he stricken"
It doesn't say HE. It says THEY. THEY WERE STRICKEN. But then the church couldn't say it was about Jesus . So they changed it to HE. Pathetic.
It's not about Jesus. Christianity is the religion that has to change the word if God in order for people to believe in it. Some religion ! Has to cheat to win. It has to lie to prove it is the truth. No lie is of the truth.
The servent is Israel. God said so. GOD said so. Read it for yourself. Read what God said. Gear him name his servent. His son. Listen to him...he tells you his son is Israel and Israel is his servent. Don't you believe him?
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Eloi
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #62[Replying to post 60 by Avoice]
Have you considered that perhaps Caiphas, the acting High Priest, knew that Jesus was the "suffering servant" of whom Isaiah spoke in Is.53?
John 11:47 Consequently the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Sanʹhe·drin together and began to say: “What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? 48 If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.� 49 But a certain one of them, Caʹia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “YOU do not know anything at all, 50 and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed.� 51 This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one. 53 Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him.
Perhaps modern Jews should consider the facts narrated in the New Testament, beyond what their current teachers may have taught them ... For example: John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Messiah. The Jews of the first century did not speak out against John officially nor do I think they have done it today either. Do modern Jews believe that John acted under God's direction? Or: if Jesus was not a prophet of God, how was his prophecy of the destruction of the temple fulfilled in that generation as he had predicted? But I guess those questions should be asked on another thread. Just to think.
Have you considered that perhaps Caiphas, the acting High Priest, knew that Jesus was the "suffering servant" of whom Isaiah spoke in Is.53?
John 11:47 Consequently the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Sanʹhe·drin together and began to say: “What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? 48 If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.� 49 But a certain one of them, Caʹia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “YOU do not know anything at all, 50 and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed.� 51 This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one. 53 Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him.
Perhaps modern Jews should consider the facts narrated in the New Testament, beyond what their current teachers may have taught them ... For example: John the Baptist identified Jesus as the Messiah. The Jews of the first century did not speak out against John officially nor do I think they have done it today either. Do modern Jews believe that John acted under God's direction? Or: if Jesus was not a prophet of God, how was his prophecy of the destruction of the temple fulfilled in that generation as he had predicted? But I guess those questions should be asked on another thread. Just to think.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #63No I don't think so. We are talking about how to verify the fulfilment of Messianic prophecies (not what those prophecies are), in short he is proposing a methodology to verify the authenticity of ALL claimed fulfilments. So we read the prophecy in the Hebrew bible , then we read the claimed fulfilment in the Christian bible, then we {quote} "check them".brianbbs67 wrote:He's telling you to check the Hebrew for Isaiah 7. ...JehovahsWitness wrote:
You didn't answer my question, check against what?!
Even polonius understood my question and managed to provide an answer and I wasn't even talking to him. So check against what?
So my question is "check them" against what, check the how? There are not a whole lot of options , either we #1) analyse one against the the other and decide if "the cap" (the prophecy) fits (the the reported claim of fulfillment) using critical thinking skills , or #2) check them against recorded historical records (or both when possible). Where there are not external historical records we are left with option #1.
In any case all options involve reference to the Christian scriptures! It is illogical to systematically refuse all reference to the Christian scriptures when analysing Messianic prophecy, this is like charging someone to judge a beauty contest according to established rules but refusing any reference to the contestants, claiming ...
"You cannot use a beauty contestant to judge the suitability of a beauty contestant"
JWAvoice wrote: You can not use the Christian Testament to uphold the truth contained in the Christian testament
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Eloi
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #64[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]
Totally truth.
In the NT we read that when astrologers wanted to know the birthplace of the King of the Jews, Herod asked the priests and they told him about the prophecy about Bethlehem, the same city where David was born. The priests knew of that messianic prophecy, and Jesus fulfilled it.
On the other hand, Jews have failed to identify the Messiah many times from even before Jesus was born until more recent times. Even the Jews themselves cannot know with certainty all the prophecies about the Messiah and how they are fulfilled. Jesus' disciples were Jews, and Paul as an example of a Jew among them was very well instructed in their traditions and teachings of the time ... he was taught by a very famous Jewish teacher in his day, Gamaliel. Once coverted to christianism, Paul did not hesitate on recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.
Totally truth.
In the NT we read that when astrologers wanted to know the birthplace of the King of the Jews, Herod asked the priests and they told him about the prophecy about Bethlehem, the same city where David was born. The priests knew of that messianic prophecy, and Jesus fulfilled it.
On the other hand, Jews have failed to identify the Messiah many times from even before Jesus was born until more recent times. Even the Jews themselves cannot know with certainty all the prophecies about the Messiah and how they are fulfilled. Jesus' disciples were Jews, and Paul as an example of a Jew among them was very well instructed in their traditions and teachings of the time ... he was taught by a very famous Jewish teacher in his day, Gamaliel. Once coverted to christianism, Paul did not hesitate on recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.
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Avoice
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #65[Replying to post 63 by Eloi]
He told them about Bethlehem huh?
Ummm....it's not that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. It's that the Messiah will come from the one who was born in bethlehem.- David
He told them about Bethlehem huh?
Ummm....it's not that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. It's that the Messiah will come from the one who was born in bethlehem.- David
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Avoice
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #66[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]
Why is this so hard?
Let's try it again.
A) The writer if Mathew said jesus' birth was foretold by the prophet Isaiah. Mathew quotes Isaiah 7:14 as PROOFTEXT that what he says is true.
B) okay...now what do we do to see if Mathew is telling the truth?
We go read Isaiah chapter 7
C) Go read Isaiah 7
D) Then tell me how Isaiah 7 has anything to do with Jesus. Or the birth of the messiah.
This is how you test the claims made by the writers of the Christian testament.
I await your answer. And always make sure your Bible is an accurate translation of what you plan on using as prooftext.
I hope you don't dodge this again. Ive asked you a few times to defend the three supposed fulfilled prophecies stated in the Christian testament and you won't do it. I thought you were supposed to be able to defend your faith. That is the purpose of this forum. To debate.
Why is this so hard?
Let's try it again.
A) The writer if Mathew said jesus' birth was foretold by the prophet Isaiah. Mathew quotes Isaiah 7:14 as PROOFTEXT that what he says is true.
B) okay...now what do we do to see if Mathew is telling the truth?
We go read Isaiah chapter 7
C) Go read Isaiah 7
D) Then tell me how Isaiah 7 has anything to do with Jesus. Or the birth of the messiah.
This is how you test the claims made by the writers of the Christian testament.
I await your answer. And always make sure your Bible is an accurate translation of what you plan on using as prooftext.
I hope you don't dodge this again. Ive asked you a few times to defend the three supposed fulfilled prophecies stated in the Christian testament and you won't do it. I thought you were supposed to be able to defend your faith. That is the purpose of this forum. To debate.
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Avoice
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #67[Replying to post 61 by Eloi]
John the Baptist was jesus' great witness?
Some witness. The last thing John is quoted to have said was that he sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one that was to come or do they look for another.
Jesus dodged the question and didnt answer. Yeah he responded but what he said meant nothing. He spouts off about his miracles. Tell John the lame walk the blind see...
Big deal. God tells us that people doing such things don't mean anything.
Yeah, some witness. John wasn't convinced of this. Yet you pretend that he was. He wasnt. And Jesus wouldn't answer him. Instead he goes off in some glorious sounding speech and people get mezmerized by his authoritative speeches.
John the Baptist was jesus' great witness?
Some witness. The last thing John is quoted to have said was that he sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one that was to come or do they look for another.
Jesus dodged the question and didnt answer. Yeah he responded but what he said meant nothing. He spouts off about his miracles. Tell John the lame walk the blind see...
Big deal. God tells us that people doing such things don't mean anything.
Yeah, some witness. John wasn't convinced of this. Yet you pretend that he was. He wasnt. And Jesus wouldn't answer him. Instead he goes off in some glorious sounding speech and people get mezmerized by his authoritative speeches.
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Avoice
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #68[Replying to post 63 by Eloi]
How do you know that the people the Jews thought were the Messiah were not the Messiah ?
How do you know they weren't ?
How do you know that the people the Jews thought were the Messiah were not the Messiah ?
How do you know they weren't ?
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Avoice
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Post #69
[Replying to post 8 by Overcomer]
Example after example of fulfilled prophecies . Oh I am aware the Christian testament claims they were fulfilled. But you apparently didn't check to see if they were telling you the truth.
The first one they claimed fulfilled was the Virgin birth prophecy . That the Messiah was to be born if a virgin . Go read Isaiah 7 . It contains the passage Mathew quotes as prooftext. Then tell me how it's about Jesus. Or the Messiah .
It isn't . But would love to hear your defence
Example after example of fulfilled prophecies . Oh I am aware the Christian testament claims they were fulfilled. But you apparently didn't check to see if they were telling you the truth.
The first one they claimed fulfilled was the Virgin birth prophecy . That the Messiah was to be born if a virgin . Go read Isaiah 7 . It contains the passage Mathew quotes as prooftext. Then tell me how it's about Jesus. Or the Messiah .
It isn't . But would love to hear your defence
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Eloi
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Re: What proves Jesus is the Messiah? Did he fulfill prophe
Post #70[Replying to Avoice]
This is the story:
Matt. 2:1 After Jesus had been born in Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.� 3 At hearing this King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem along with him; 4 and on gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people he began to inquire of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa; for this is how it has been written through the prophet, 6 ‘And you, O Bethʹle·hem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant [city] among the governors of Judah; for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.’�
As in this subforum the Bible is the base of the answers or something similar, I don't mention certain basic things that readers here are supposed to know ... Other passage, Jesus adult, reads:
John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38 He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’� 39 However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. 40 Therefore some of the crowd that heard these words began saying: “This is for a certainty The Prophet.� 41 Others were saying: “This is the Christ.� But some were saying: “The Christ is not actually coming out of Galʹi·lee, is he? 42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David, and from Bethʹle·hem the village where David used to be?� 43 Therefore a division over him developed among the crowd. 44 Some of them, though, were wanting to get hold of him, but no one did lay [his] hands upon him.
Jews in the time of Jesus knew the place he was supposed to be born: Bethlehem.
This is the story:
Matt. 2:1 After Jesus had been born in Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from eastern parts came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.� 3 At hearing this King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem along with him; 4 and on gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people he began to inquire of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa; for this is how it has been written through the prophet, 6 ‘And you, O Bethʹle·hem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant [city] among the governors of Judah; for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.’�
As in this subforum the Bible is the base of the answers or something similar, I don't mention certain basic things that readers here are supposed to know ... Other passage, Jesus adult, reads:
John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38 He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’� 39 However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. 40 Therefore some of the crowd that heard these words began saying: “This is for a certainty The Prophet.� 41 Others were saying: “This is the Christ.� But some were saying: “The Christ is not actually coming out of Galʹi·lee, is he? 42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David, and from Bethʹle·hem the village where David used to be?� 43 Therefore a division over him developed among the crowd. 44 Some of them, though, were wanting to get hold of him, but no one did lay [his] hands upon him.
Jews in the time of Jesus knew the place he was supposed to be born: Bethlehem.
