Heaven & the Resurrection

[JehovahsWitness]

Many believe that the righteous men and women from bible times such as Abraham, died and went to heaven.

If that is the case for you, how do you reconcile this with the idea of a future resurrection on "the last day"? What do you think this refers to.

JOHN 11: 24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

So you were brainwashed into religion!!! That is what I said, you where born into Christian religion and you still call yourself a Christian.

Brainwashed into your religion. Your parents brainwashed you from birth to 18 or whenever you left home and still believe in the Bible, God and Jesus.

Thanks for providing an example of what I mean.

What is your story?

I was brought up where religion was not discussed. Did not go to church. I studies comparative regions in High School in ancient history.

Decided I was an atheist when I was about 50, never thought much about gods before than.

Since never discussed religion with my parents when I left home at 18 I was free to choose whatever.

Thanks.

Yours is the third story told here.

One poster, in your terms, was "brainwashed", the other two were not.

Yet it seems to me that "brainwashing" is what all of us go through in our formative years.

You and I were being "brainwashed" into thinking that religion has no place in normal living.

Our parents modelled that, and our schooling tended to confirm that.

[onewithhim]

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day."

Apparently Moses and Abraham and Elijah and Enoch and Lazarus and the Good Thief got let into the pearly gates a bit early.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Nope.

All of them are still dead, or as scripture sometimes terms it, asleep.

You are correct.

There is no scripture that alludes to Moses going to heaven, nor Abraham, or any of those men of old. When we remember that the dead are conscious of nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10) and that no one went to heaven until after Jesus died and was resurrected and went back himself (John 3:13), and then we read the accounts about those men, we can understand them in a way that harmonizes with Ecclesiastes and John.

Elijah and Moses' appearance with Jesus during the Transfiguration was merely a vision, and Jesus called it such. (Matthew 17:9)

Elijah had at one time, near the end of his assignment, gone up in a chariot to "heaven." He did not go to heaven where God and the angels were. The "heaven" he went up to was the space above the earth where birds fly. It is the same "heaven" that is mentioned at Genesis 1:26, in which the "flying creatures" fly. Elijah went up that far in his chariot, and transferred to another assignment, which we can see from 2 Chronicles 21:12-15, where he wrote a letter to King Jehoram of Judah.

Enoch was said to have "been taken" by God, but that doesn't have to mean that he went to heaven. In fact, according to the scriptures I cited above, NO ONE went to heaven at that time. God cut short his life at an age far below most of his contemporaries. We don't really know what it means for him "not to see death." But one thing for sure, he didn't go to heaven. (One reference says that "it may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in the trance so that he did not experience the pangs of death" (Gen.5:24; Hebrews 11:5,13.)

Lazarus, in the parable at Luke 16, did not literally go to heaven either. The parable is not a literal event, but was designed to make a point about the Pharisees' lack of responsibility in spiritually taking care of the common people.

The thief at Jesus' side did not go to heaven or anywhere else, on that day or any other day. Jesus promised him that he would be in Paradise, referring to a resurrection back to an earth in paradise conditions, like the Garden of Eden.

These explanations do not conflict with the other scriptures that I have cited. The popular explanations do conflict.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 72 by onewithhim]


I agreen there is so much in Lk 16 that lenDSG itself to the intexpectation that it was indeed a parade and not to be taken literally. Also the context and the reaction of the religious leaders indicate it was in fact something to do with them.

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 72 by onewithhim]


I agreen there is so much in Lk 16 that lenDSG itself to the intexpectation that it was indeed a parade and not to be taken literally.

JW

LOL.....I think you are speaking your sentences into your phone, right? My daughter does that a lot and her sons' names keep on getting misspelled.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

So you were brainwashed into religion!!! That is what I said, you where born into Christian religion and you still call yourself a Christian.

Brainwashed into your religion. Your parents brainwashed you from birth to 18 or whenever you left home and still believe in the Bible, God and Jesus.

Thanks for providing an example of what I mean.

What is your story?

I was brought up where religion was not discussed. Did not go to church. I studies comparative regions in High School in ancient history.

Decided I was an atheist when I was about 50, never thought much about gods before than.

Since never discussed religion with my parents when I left home at 18 I was free to choose whatever.

Thanks.

Yours is the third story told here.

One poster, in your terms, was "brainwashed", the other two were not.

Yet it seems to me that "brainwashing" is what all of us go through in our formative years.

You and I were being "brainwashed" into thinking that religion has no place in normal living.

Our parents modelled that, and our schooling tended to confirm that.

Explain how never discussing religion was brainwashing? It is not like a religious parent forcing the child to attend church, pray at meals, read the bible to them, tell them that they will be tortured if they don't believe. How is it the same?

EXPLAIN.

[Zzyzx]

.

So you were brainwashed into religion!!!

Moderator Comment

Kindly refrain from using uncivil terms such as 'brainwashed'.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

So you were brainwashed into religion!!! That is what I said, you where born into Christian religion and you still call yourself a Christian.

Brainwashed into your religion. Your parents brainwashed you from birth to 18 or whenever you left home and still believe in the Bible, God and Jesus.

Thanks for providing an example of what I mean.

What is your story?

I was brought up where religion was not discussed. Did not go to church. I studies comparative regions in High School in ancient history.

Decided I was an atheist when I was about 50, never thought much about gods before than.

Since never discussed religion with my parents when I left home at 18 I was free to choose whatever.

Thanks.

Yours is the third story told here.

One poster, in your terms, was "brainwashed", the other two were not.

Yet it seems to me that "brainwashing" is what all of us go through in our formative years.

You and I were being "brainwashed" into thinking that religion has no place in normal living.

Our parents modelled that, and our schooling tended to confirm that.

Explain how never discussing religion was brainwashing? It is not like a religious parent forcing the child to attend church, pray at meals, read the bible to them, tell them that they will be tortured if they don't believe. How is it the same?

EXPLAIN.

It isn't the same, exactly, it is more subtle, but it does have the same result.

Maybe it is why I press mute when tv ads are thrown at me!

This link gives a good example of the challenge we face that is so often a part of life.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/201 ... 90bf3e1316

[Donray]

Everybody needs to be politically correct and stop using words anyone objects too even though it is a good words.

We must use weasel words to get around words that have an actual meaning.

For example some people object to brainwashing and therefore never be used could people supply a list words that mean the some thing but would be acceptable?

[marco]

Nope.

All of them are still dead, or as scripture sometimes terms it, asleep.

Talishi provided you with an example to suggest that the dead Abraham and Moses don't sleep very well. Your response, nope, doesn't quite make it as an explanation. I have no problem with people thinking the dead are sleeping, but don't imagine that you draw this conclusion from Scripture. When we find a nope in Scripture we can always find a yes.

[Talishi]

Everybody needs to be politically correct and stop using words anyone objects too even though it is a good words.

We must use weasel words to get around words that have an actual meaning.

For example some people object to brainwashing and therefore never be used could people supply a list words that mean the some thing but would be acceptable?

Drinking the kool aid is the new brainwashing.