Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[Benoni]

Jesus preached to the dead from the time of Noah this is speaking of the people from Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Apostle Peter explained that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water." (I Pet.3:18-20).

I had a JW tell these were evil spirits. Spirits are people not "evils spirits" for that would be adding to this verse. Why would Jesus need to preached to evil spirits? He saves people not evil spirits.

What did He preach? What else the good news.

[Trump]

Regarding the soul, or hell, if the dead in hades, hell, grave know nothing, why would the Bible make so many references to it, especially Jesus?

Because death is part of the human experience. It is as Paul says mankinds "Last enemy" and it's elmination something the Messiah, promise from the Garden of Eden came to conquer.

Is this just another of your "backhanded responses", which you accused me of doing?

I asked you clearly, I said: "if the dead in hades, hell, grave know nothing, why would the Bible make so many references to it, especially Jesus?" What kind of answer is that? We weren't talking about "getting old, death and dying", we were talking about hell, and the pain and suffering associated with those wicked and unbelievers who supposedly go down there.

Not their bodies, Jesus wasn't talking about the body made of dust, we all know where that is after it dies or after the ___ leaves it: "from dust thou art, to dust you shall return". So obviously this is not referring to the physical body, but .. come on, who in like umm, in Revelation 6 cry out? Not the dust that the physical part of us turns into, but what part of us is crying out?
I know you know.

That's exactly what the Evolution-theory teaches, that we die, and that's the end of it.

Well even a broken clock is right twice a day.

While it is true person ceases to exist at death and there is no "after life" (ie nothing survives of the person to continue consciouse existence elsewhere in another form). That's where the accuracy of an atheistic worldview ends because the bible says there is a hope for the dead.

Hope for the dead, when you just said the dead know/see/hear/do nothing! So there is hope for a pile of dust? Why, because God loves to communicate with a pile of dust and plays house calling them His children?

There is no "after life"? So who, or what in (Revelations 6:9-11)
10 .. cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? .. the dust that know nothing? Can you please explain this (supposed) allegory?

Did Jesus know that 'the dead know nothing'?

It seems reasonable, being the Son of God that helped God in creating man, he (Jesus) would, yes.

And yet Jesus goes on referring to them as if they were alive down there.

The wicked and liars, who pervert the Gospels to keep people from attaining eternal life he refers to them as; weeping and gnashing their teeth

and the Saints as; they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Please explain why Jesus, or any other of Gods Angels would say these things to us the living, regarding those dead bodies, unconscious piles of dust that are no different than a rock in the ground?

That their very existence ends in the grave?

See above

Is this yet another "backhanded response"? See what above?

You think Jesus would have used hell if the body made of dust was who we are, and once we turn to dust again, the dead know nothing?

Well of course "hell" is an English word, but if you are asking if Jesus would have known what makes up a human being and what happens to one once he (the person) dies, then yes. See above.

JW

Yet another, .. I guess I'll just turn the other cheek, thank you, may I have another?

Yes, hell is an English word, .. and?

[Benoni]

No where in the Bible speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how many of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? Even without the vast and conclusive testimony of scripture, even without the illuminating effect of the Holy Spirit of Truth, we would be inclined to suspect the "orthodox" teachings of the churches on the so-called "second coming of Christ" simply because all of the preachers and teachers and professors of Mystery Babylon are so united in dogmatically proclaiming it!
The term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two thousand years ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming". The "second coming" is not a biblical expression and first occurred among Christians as late as the middle of the second century after Christ. I cannot emphasize too strongly that the word "second" is NEVER used in Holy Writ with the word "coming". That is the simple and plain and incontrovertible truth, and this fact is elementary and basic to a correct understanding of the coming of the Lord.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 73 by Benoni]

No where in the Bible speaks of the "second coming" of Christ.

The Word/Thing fallacy is common place. It is pretty obvious that the N.T. believes Christ returned to heaven, but would return. His First Coming was the incarnation, the second, his return.

[Benoni]

[Replying to liamconnor]

There are many returns of the Lord. Why does you're doctrine only believe in two? Which one of the following is you're second coming? I hate limiting God.

-The Lord comes:
-WITH CLOUDS
-AS LIGHTNING
-AS A THIEF
-AS THE BRIDEGROOM
-AS THE MORNING STAR
-AS THE SON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING
-IN RESURRECTION POWER
-IN FLAMING FIRE
-AS REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP
-IN THE AIR
-AS THE RAIN
-ON A WHITE HORSE
-AS KING
-AS THE CHIEF SHEPHERD
-WITH HIS ANGELS
-WITH HIS SAINTS
-TO HIS SAINTS
-IN HIS SAINTS
-IN JUDGMENT
-WITH REWARDS
-WITH A SHOUT
-WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL
-WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD
-TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
-TO HIS TEMPLE
-IN GLORY
-AS LORD
-IN HIS KINGDOM
-AS SEASONS OF REFRESHING
-ETC.
-ETC.

[Benoni]

There are many returns of the Lord and here is but just one.
Comes with CloudS
Many people get all up set when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories. This glory cloud of God has taken different shapes and different sizes on various occasions. When it was time for the children of Israel to begin their exodus out of Egypt, the glory of God took the form of a pillar of fire enshrouded within a cloud. "And the Lord went before them by day IN A PILLAR OF A CLOUD, to lead them in the way; and by night IN A PILLAR OF FIRE, to give them light, to go by day and night: God took not away the pillar of cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people" (Ex. 13:21-22).


Another proof that the "cloudS" with which Jesus comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Jesus coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).

[Left Site]

Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If it isn't an allegory then it is possible that those in this non-allegorical hell yet are able to speak to Father Abraham and it is possible that those in the non-allegorical hell can ask Father Abraham to send their brother to them with a drop of water on his brother's finger to cool their tongue from the heat of the fire, just as Luke 16:24 says. We cannot pick and choose what parts we wish to see as allegorical. It is either all allegorical or it is all literal. If a person is not willing to see that such things are clearly allegorical, then, that person is not willing to consider anything anyone tries to tell them.

The allegory is about the shift of God's rulership blessing from the natural Jews to the spiritual Jews selected out of all nationalities. The drop of water that the Rich Man in Hell asked Father Abraham for was a request that God send those brothers or fellow Jews who had embraced the New Covenant to that Old Covenant Rich Man ex-ruling class of the flesh and blood Israel with a watering down of the verdict to dismiss them as rulers by authority of the Jerusalem above. To that Rich Man's torment he found out that the Jerusalem above has greater authority than that flesh and blood Jerusalem below.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 :But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is Jesus speaking, is this all allegorical?
1. the beggar dies and is carried by angels to Abrahams bosom
references; John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Yes, the Lazarus class are the elect of God in Christ. They are one body, one spirit, with Christ and so the New Covenant begins right there as you have identified, with the Christ. Jesus was the principal Lazarus but the entire Lazarus includes his unified body of believers who are one with him.

John 11:26
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

1) Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, the Father of our faith, the other Jesus, in the bosom of the Father.

John 11:26 says those who believes in Jesus will never die, and there is no mention of Lazarus being buried, yet we know he was because even David; Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption."
.. seen corruption, but may be there in the spirit realm with Abraham also?

You must take verses 25 and 26 together:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Verse 26 is speaking of those who were raised from the dead in verse 25. This happens spiritually before it happens literally. What do I mean by that? We were dead spiritually to God by virtue of our sins and once we are raised to life spiritually through God's acceptance of our faith, we never have to be considered spiritually dead in God's eyes ever again. When that becomes true then the literal resurrection and everlasting life is assured to also come to be true.

That is very deep for most people but in identifying Jesus as the principal Lazarus you showed me you are ready to understand.

Revelation 5:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Is this allegorical too?

Because you wrote so much I decided I would stop here. The rest of what you stated were hinged to what has been so far addressed anyway. So you should be able to see your answers already by just the discussion to this point.

Revelation 5:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Those being spoken about are: Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

That is why the, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood ...

What we see there is the same as what we see here, as follows:

Genesis 4:10 And he<(God) said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

It is the precious value of the life (soul) that is in the blood crying out to God for justice. It is an abstract reality which is being expressed rather than a literal occurrence.

[Benoni]

Trump wrote:
Yes, I understand about the allegory, but is that all that the "breath of life" is?
Can we look deeper into this? How about the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

[JP Cusick]

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

I have never heard this analogy of this story from Luke 16:19-31, and I see it as brilliant, and this analogy aligns with the rest of the Bible concerning Judah and Israel, and the last verse 31 is like a summary that they do not believe Moses or the Prophets.

I already knew that "Lazarus and the rich man" was a parable and I knew there was no place of "Hell" and the hateful way that mainstream Christianity interpreted that parable was always contrary to the real Gospel message of forgiveness and salvation, and now it is easy to see the truth in this analogy given in the quote above.

Particularly the line that says that the great gulf between them is not eternal.

Thank you Benoni - I appreciate this message.

[Trump]

And JW's say he didn't know what he was talking about when he referred to the dead as if they could see, hear, feel torment, and talk to Abraham asking for a drop of water.

Jehovah's Witnesses have never said Jesus "did not know what he was talking about" and we never will, that is merely your interpretation of our conclusions because we happen not be be literalists.

Not a literalist, sounds like the Pope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlg2ie7GwTs

Acts 7:49
Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?

.. not to be taken literally, like the Pope says.

Now please explain to me, and everyone here, verse by verse what [strike]Jesus[/strike], sorry, I meant to say Michael creature (according to JW's) really meant? This will prove your true intent, and will regain our respect for JW literature!

Here is what I am kindly asking you, and if you answer the next12 questions all regarding Luke 16:19-31 backing it up with Scripture logic, I will take another look at joining your group!

1) So it was that the beggar died,
did he really mean the beggar died, or is this metaphorical for something?

2) and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom.
Carried by angels? I'm sure his body was buried, or maybe because he did not have money for a grave, they just threw his body on the city dump that they kept burning with brimstone? So what was it that was "carried by the angels"?

3) The rich man also died and was buried.
Please provide the metaphor for this?

4) And being in torments in Hades,
Hades, hell, grave, .. explain why Jesus would refer to the dead that know nothing in the grave as "being in torment"?

5) he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Again, please provide the proper metaphor for this?

6) Then he (rich man) cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
If the dead are dead and know nothing, then this is a state that the Rich Man is in while alive, maybe a bad dream, a nightmare, what? Or is just a metaphor, or an allegory to what?

7) But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Explain why Jesus kept referring to God, his God and our God and Creator as "Abraham"?
They are both dead and buried, what does being in torment, and the other being comforted really mean? The dead know nothing, what torment or comfort could a dead body in the grave feel?

8) And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
Please explain which metaphor fits this "gulf" between two dead bodies in the grave?

9) Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my fathers house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.
Five brothers who are obviously alive, who may be rich too, not to come to this torment?

10) Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Again it's Abraham, not "The Father" said that the living have the Prophets. What other metaphor would fit this?

11) And he (rich man) said, No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
Again, it is clear as day that the Rich Man is dead and buried in the grave/hell, where he is being in torment, and he don't want his living brothers to come there. I would love to hear the metaphor to this too?

12) But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

"One rise from the dead"? Is this a bunch of dead bodies, among them God as you say that Abraham really is, talking to each other? Or is this a spiritual realm, both hell (other than the grave), and another place the righteous are staying waiting for that Great Day of judgment where God through Jesus will avenge those wicked who caused all their suffering, their torture, pain and anguish they suffered through life as Believers?

We believe Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about, namely that he was speaking a parable and each element (including the "death") was symbolic of something*. You are free to disagree but that doesn't mean that we are obliged to accept your own literalist interpretation.

JW


* Death is often used metaphorically even today, we speak of someone we cut out of our lives as being "dead to us", or being in a profound sleep being "dead to the world" and we use the word death or dead or dying in many idiomatic expressions (see link below)
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/death

So the Bible is just idioms, metaphors which god-Abraham and His son Michael the Cherubim gave the authority to decipher to the J.W.'s?