Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

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No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[face2face]

Romans 6:9, "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him."

Can Almighty God be held under deaths dominion?

If not, in what way was Jesus held under deaths dominion?

F2F

[face2face]

Romans 6:10

"For the death he died, he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God." (Romans 6:10, ESV)

Can God die to sin?

Can such a Holy Being die to sin once?

The answer of course is no, so how was God to overcome sin's flesh?

Think seriously about the answer and you will run as far from the Trinity as you possibly can, if the answer is revealed to you!

F2F

Note: think about the relationship between death and sin (Romans 6:23) and then consider how it was impossible for Jesus to have two natures!

[face2face]

Also, how can the "life" Jesus lived, live to God if he is God?

That cannot make sense at all unless Jesus was given life and existence like you and I!

The Trinitarian has some explaining to do regarding Romans 6:10.

There are a lot more quotes (and questions) to come.

Enjoy

F2F

[Capbook]

You post many replies but I believe did not explicitly answers the simple logic I have presented.

(Col 2:9) Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defined word "Godhead" with Strong No.2320, in Greek "theotes" as the nature or state of being God, divine nature, divine being, etc.

NT:2320 theotes
a 'God,' 12.1) the nature or state of being God - 'deity, divine nature, divine being.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority. Col 2:8–10.

Once again, Capbook, you've created another contradiction for yourself.

Who gave Jesus this FULNESS?

Jesus fullness of being God was from the beginning.(John 1:1) Jesus possessed the glory with the Father before the world existed.(John 17:5) If Jesus is not God can He says those words below?

John 16:15
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure (John 3:34). He shared the same mind and purpose as God (John 10:30). However, he also acknowledged that his Father was greater than he (John 10:29; 14:28). It’s clear, then, that while Jesus was a uniquely empowered human being, He was not God.

The Bible verse clearly speaks Jesus is God (John 1:18) but nowhere to find I colored blue above.

But again, let's assume I believe in the Trinity, and I'm confronted with this dilemma.

1. God gave Jesus His Spirit without measure (God more powerful)
2. God gave Jesus wisdom (God more powerful)
3. God raises Jesus from the grave (God more powerful)
4. God exalts him to His right-hand side (God more powerful)
5. God fills His Glorified Son with the Fulness of His Glory (God more powerful)

Jesus had said all authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(Matt 28:18) And All that the Father has are mine.(John 16:15)

So how do you interpret Col 2:9?

Already answered above.

How does Jesus being God have this "fulness", yet still in his glorified state be subject to God?

Subject means to me as obedient, that is relational subordination even in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. If a human fathers says to his son, you are my right hand son. Does that means they are not the same in a state of being human though in different roles?

27. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything has been put under him," it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Can you reconcile Col 2:9 with 1 Corinthians 15:27

Yes, same answer above.

Having a true understanding who Jesus was and is would enable you to answer this question.

Yes, for Christians to experience eternal life must know who Jesus really is. It's not me that speaks of it, it's John 17:3. You might again question the verse.

The 3n1 dogma cannot help you

It does, I think I've already answered this on previous exchanges, you just don't accept it.
That's maybe why I cannot response to your many post as some had come again.

[face2face]

Did Jesus require saving? and if so, from what?

[face2face]

Subject means to me as obedient, that is relational subordination even in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. If a human fathers says to his son, you are my right hand son. Does that means they are not the same in a state of being human though in different roles?

It seems possible that you may not fully understand your own belief.

Co-equal and Co-eternal: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each considered fully God, sharing the same divine nature and existing eternally.

Many believers, like yourself, have diluted the concept of the Trinity, as the biblical evidence for Christ's subordination is clearly outlined in Scripture.

It's the evidence you see Capbook - it cannot be avoided John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27-28; John 5:19; Philippians 2:6-8; John 8:28; Luke 22:42; 1 Corinthians 11:3

Acknowledging this could be the first step to your journey into truth.

F2F

[face2face]

Capbook believes that Jesus is obedient to God, subordinate to Him, but still fully God in every way.

The commonly held belief by Trinitarians interpret duality to mean that, while Jesus was subordinate in his humanity, his divinity remained unchanged.

It's rare to find a Trinitarian like Capbook who believes in the Trinity and maintains Jesus in Heaven in his divinity is still subject to the Father.

There are a number of proof text which supports Capbooks belief though breaks down the traditional formula of the Trinity.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28: "For 'God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says 'all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."

God is the Father and Creator of all things...including the Lord Jesus Christ!

Jesus is not God; He is the Son of God and born of a woman. God shares a oneness with Jesus (His Son), who manifests or reflects God, just as believers are to reflect Christ and be united with Him in purpose and in unity with one another.

John 1:1-2, 14, 18, 29; John 17:21-23; John 10:25-36 – In John 1:1, the Greek word for "Word" is "Logos", which can mean thought, word, something said, or a plan. There are many prophetic references to Christ, even as early as Genesis. In John 10, Christ doesn’t claim to be God but identifies as God’s Son and refers to Psalm 82:6 (“I said, ‘You are gods’”) where “elohim” (the Hebrew word) refers to human judges. Moses was also called a "god" (Exodus 7:1), meaning a representative or manifestation of God, without being literally God.

John 10:34 – Christ refers to Psalm 82:6, where “elohim” (meaning gods or judges) refers to human rulers, indicating one can be a manifestation of God without being God Himself.

God is greater than Christ, who is God’s Son and always remains subordinate to Him, though he is a manifestation of God the Father.

Additional Scriptures: Hosea 11:9; Isaiah 7:14-15; Hebrews 4:15; Titus 1:2; James 1:13; John 14:28; John 5:26-27, 30; Luke 22:42; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 – These verses further demonstrate the distinction between God the Father and Jesus, with Jesus being subordinate to the Father.

God sent His Son (born of Mary) who is now the mediator between God and humanity (The Man Christ Jesus) – Romans 4:24; John 17:3; Ephesians 1:3, 17; John 1:29; Revelation 1:1; 1 Timothy 2:5.

Once Capbook understands God manifestation the Scripture will come to life and truth can be obtained. Holding onto the creeds destroys the revelation of Jesus Christ and the work God achieve in him.

F2F

[face2face]

It is important to also note that the Bible does not teach a pre-existence Jesus, and the Trinitarian belief in his pre-existent divinity is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

F2F

[Capbook]

Subject means to me as obedient, that is relational subordination even in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. If a human fathers says to his son, you are my right hand son. Does that means they are not the same in a state of being human though in different roles?

It seems possible that you may not fully understand your own belief.

Co-equal and Co-eternal: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each considered fully God, sharing the same divine nature and existing eternally.

Many believers, like yourself, have diluted the concept of the Trinity, as the biblical evidence for Christ's subordination is clearly outlined in Scripture.

The three were present in the creation week.
They are in the state of being God, I believe I already have answered before. As being co-eternal, the Father had said to the Son, God, your throne is forever and ever. (Heb 1:8) As to the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14 proves it.

Heb 9:14
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It's the evidence you see Capbook - it cannot be avoided John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27-28; John 5:19; Philippians 2:6-8; John 8:28; Luke 22:42; 1 Corinthians 11:3

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

Acknowledging this could be the first step to your journey into truth.

I believe the truth already revealed by John 1:18, Jesus as God rendered in original Greek of the New Testament. Supported by papyri P66 and P75.

That I think Arians tried to hide by inserting "a" on a translation were original Greek wordings comes as "and God was the word."

And I believe you still have not answered the simple logic I've presented honestly and explicitly.

[face2face]

Subject means to me as obedient, that is relational subordination even in heaven. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. If a human fathers says to his son, you are my right hand son. Does that means they are not the same in a state of being human though in different roles?

It seems possible that you may not fully understand your own belief.

Co-equal and Co-eternal: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each considered fully God, sharing the same divine nature and existing eternally.

Many believers, like yourself, have diluted the concept of the Trinity, as the biblical evidence for Christ's subordination is clearly outlined in Scripture.

The three were present in the creation week.
They are in the state of being God, I believe I already have answered before. As being co-eternal, the Father had said to the Son, God, your throne is forever and ever. (Heb 1:8) As to the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14 proves it.

Heb 9:14
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It's the evidence you see Capbook - it cannot be avoided John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27-28; John 5:19; Philippians 2:6-8; John 8:28; Luke 22:42; 1 Corinthians 11:3

I think I've already answered about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, though Jesus is God, still obeys the Father, referred as relational subordination where the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal in essence, they have distinct roles and relationships, with the Son and Spirit being subordinate to the Father in terms of their actions and activities, not in their nature or being.

Acknowledging this could be the first step to your journey into truth.

I believe the truth already revealed by John 1:18, Jesus as God rendered in original Greek of the New Testament. Supported by papyri P66 and P75.

That I think Arians tried to hide by inserting "a" on a translation were original Greek wordings comes as "and God was the word."

And I believe you still have not answered the simple logic I've presented honestly and explicitly.

The evidence you need to support the doctrine of the Trinity has not been presented. It is dishonest to claim otherwise.

Many sincere Trinitarians before you have openly acknowledged that the proof for this doctrine is not found in the Bible, but rather in the later creeds.

Once you acknowledge this truth we can move forward, until then you have nothing.

F2F