Are God and Satan allies?

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

[Claire Evans]

The battle between good and evil would create a mess, no? It doesn't matter what it does to the metaphysical universe. We have to admit we don't understand everything.

I can imagine a great battle such as Ragnark of Norse mythology. I don't know what this suggests, though.
I am most willing to admit that far from knowing everything, the total sum of my knowledge is a bagatelle. As a little boy I was told that, to get an idea of my importance, I should throw a stone in a lake and wait to see how long it affected the water.

You were saying it reduces the evidence to a spiritual but when are things always orderly?

It's not for entertainment's sake. It is meant to be a warning.

Warnings such as Look out! Fire! Are usually immediately clear. Revelation is no revelation at all, for we can take as many meanings as there are readers. The only warning it gives me is: "Don't believe a word of it.""

I think there are many things that Revelation has prophecised that is coming true. Like the mark of the beast where one cannot buy or sell without taking the mark.



Start at 8:34

But a tiger doesn't fill one with horror. It is not hideous.

I believe a reporter held the same view and continued to take pictures of an approaching tiger until the beast disabused him of his optimism. Blake wondered why a good God could invent a beast that lived to kill and devour other creatures. He possibly forgot that God made man too - but at least he gave man the choice of meat or vegetable.

Our remit is the allegiance between God and Satan. For me it is enough to speculate on one creator, never mind a variety.

That's different. The tiger is a predator. It needs to be to survive in this world. It is a corrupt world and everything has had to adapt to it. If you look at a picture of a tiger, you would say it's beautiful. Look at an python and most would find it revolting and utterly terrifying to look at.

To speculate on one creator is not going to give the bigger picture.

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

All that just to argue Marcianism? I thought that was settled in the 2nd century. That would mean there are two Gods ,and that is unacceptable for the one God school of thought. We don't have an old God of wrath and a new God of love . God's passion is what we have in both wrath and love. God gets wrathful only because he passionately loves humanity. Our God is a God of pathos passion not an impassionate unmoved mover of the philosophers. Surly you know what passion is a thing of the heart passions beyond greater than more powerful than intellect and will .

We do have a God of wrath in the OT and then suddenly He changes in the NT. You have to admit there is unspeakable violence in the OT perpetrating by the Israelites with Yahweh's approval. He is considered a god of war. Sending plagues to torment the Egyptians is not an act of love. It's evil.

So we have two scenarios:

1.) There are two creators, God and Satan.

2.) There is one, God, who is responsible for all the evil in the world because He made Satan with evil. He gave Satan omniscient and omnipresent powers. He creates evil then expects us to be grateful by redeeming us of sin.

[marco]

So we have two scenarios:

1.) There are two creators, God and Satan.

2.) There is one, God, who is responsible for all the evil in the world because He made Satan with evil. He gave Satan omniscient and omnipresent powers. He creates evil then expects us to be grateful by redeeming us of sin.

You have two scenarios, perhaps.
There could be MANY gods, good or bad.
Satan could be classed as a god.
The Yahweh of the OT may be a fabrication while the God Jesus spoke of might reflect truth.
Both Yahweh and the God mentioned in the NT could be figurative beings.
There are other possibilities outside of the range of the Bible.

[marco]

I think there are many things that Revelation has prophecised that is coming true. Like the mark of the beast where one cannot buy or sell without taking the mark.

We can interpret obscurity as anything we want. The mark was once a unit of currency in Germany.

If you look at a picture of a tiger, you would say it's beautiful. Look at a python and most would find it revolting and utterly terrifying to look at.

It would depend on where you're standing, I think. The lady here seems at ease with the python.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... toxH8fpX1Q

I suppose some see the serpent, Satan, as no worse than the tiger God of the OT.

[Claire Evans]

So we have two scenarios:

1.) There are two creators, God and Satan.

2.) There is one, God, who is responsible for all the evil in the world because He made Satan with evil. He gave Satan omniscient and omnipresent powers. He creates evil then expects us to be grateful by redeeming us of sin.

You have two scenarios, perhaps.
There could be MANY gods, good or bad.
Satan could be classed as a god.
The Yahweh of the OT may be a fabrication while the God Jesus spoke of might reflect truth.
Both Yahweh and the God mentioned in the NT could be figurative beings.
There are other possibilities outside of the range of the Bible.

I'm talking to a fellow Christian challenging the Christian belief.

[Claire Evans]

I think there are many things that Revelation has prophecised that is coming true. Like the mark of the beast where one cannot buy or sell without taking the mark.

We can interpret obscurity as anything we want. The mark was once a unit of currency in Germany.

A unit of currency can't be put in one's hand or forehead like a microchip.

If you look at a picture of a tiger, you would say it's beautiful. Look at a python and most would find it revolting and utterly terrifying to look at.

It would depend on where you're standing, I think. The lady here seems at ease with the python.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... toxH8fpX1Q

I suppose some see the serpent, Satan, as no worse than the tiger God of the OT.

With all due respect to those people, there's something wrong with them in my opinion.

And also, snakes are worshiped in the occult which obviously entails black magic.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free15.htm

[Monta]

[Replying to post 82 by Claire Evans]

"We do have a God of wrath in the OT and then suddenly He changes in the NT. You have to admit there is unspeakable violence in the OT perpetrating by the Israelites with Yahweh's approval. He is considered a god of war. Sending plagues to torment the Egyptians is not an act of love. It's evil.

So we have two scenarios:

1.) There are two creators, God and Satan.

2.) There is one, God, who is responsible for all the evil in the world because He made Satan with evil. He gave Satan omniscient and omnipresent powers. He creates evil then expects us to be grateful by redeeming us of sin."

The ancient text of the OT can not be understood in the light of the 20th century English language. God only knows what the story of Job was trying to tell us; does anyone today really believe that Job was was swallowed by a whale? If not, then why believe other stuff about satan?

Jesus said to Peter - get thee behind me satan; we are all satans at times.
Telling lies destructive of God's kingdom is satanic. Face it.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

According to the doctrine of the Mormon church Jesus and Satan are brothers, sons of the God Elohim.

[Monta]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

"According to the doctrine of the Mormon church Jesus and Satan are brothers, sons of the God Elohim."

Thank you for that information, I had no idea.

They built a beautiful temple close-by.
I am not likely to join.

[OnceConvinced]

You mean, according to Isaiah.

Nope. According to God. Isaiah was quoting God.

In order to promote Yahweh as the supreme god, Isaiah had to say God created all things, even evil. However, "evil" in this Isaiah passage actually means calamity.

If it was calamity then the professional translators would have translated it as calamity. the majority haven't. Evil is not calamity.

However, causing calamity is still not good.

Indeed not. In fact, it is very malevolent. Evil in fact.

Even if you want to manipulate the meanings of words to mean something other than standard dictionary meanings, you still have the word "create" in there. God CREATED it. Or have you got some alternate meaning for the word "create" you'd like us to accept?

The majority of professional translations use the word "darkness" or "evil". If he created "calamity" then he had to have created everything that makes up that calamity. It's still evil.

Well, Yahweh in the OT is not the Father of Jesus.

Ok so we should rip out the OT and throw it in the trash then?

Sorry, but if it wasnt for Yahweh there would be no Jesus. Without the OT you would not have the NT. Jesus is linked to the OT. He even preached from the OT. He said that not a jot should be removed or changed.

This espouses that Satan was not created but always existed as a powerful "god" in opposition to God. There are opposites in everything in life. Positive, negatives, anode and cathodes. Therefore we can imagine God and Satan battling on earth for the souls of mankind. If God was omnipotent, why is there a struggle? What would be the victory of Christ? It's like a marathon swimmer crowing victory when they beat a toddler in the pool. In other words, there is no victory. I believe the only thing that makes God more powerful is the due to the victory of Christ. Without Christ, it would be like an impasse.

Does this make more sense or does the thought of God creating Satan then sending His Son to defeat Satan make more sense?

I think its all fantasy, but I would agree that Satan being an equal to God would make more sense than God unwittingly creating a monster. In which case you can blame Satan for a lot of what appears to be malevolent design.