"Torture stake" vs. "Cross"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness changed the word "cross" to "torture stake" and the word "crucified" to "impaled" in their New World Translation of the Bible.

This seems to be the only translation that does so.

And JW illustrations of the crucifixion depict Jesus not on the cross, but hanging from a pole, a "torture stake".

For debate: Why did their translators do this?

What theological or doctrinal clarification could this change possibly convey?

Does this change defy history, or did the Romans "impale" it's criminals as opposed to crucifying them?

Also, do these changes enchance or detract from the NWT's credibility?

[marco]

And there was no indication that the RCC did NOT agree with the internment and murder of millions of people.

I think the extremities of your view move close to being insulting to millions of people. Millions of Catholics fought against Hitler. It is quite, quite absurd to express the view that The Catholic Church went along with the Holocaust.

As I said, the OP concerns the cross. Let's return to it.

[onewithhim]

So long as man's laws don't interfere with God's laws than we will obey the laws of whatever land we are in. Yet, if the laws of that land require that we give executive devotion to something other than Jehovah's Word, we will refuse. Following Bible principles protect us spiritually from following the wrong ideas of men. It certainly protected JWs from spiritual corruption during WWII and because of their devotion to Jehovah didn't stain God's name with the Nazis seeking genocide.

Then perhaps the Pope and his flock should have become Jehovah's Witnesses. Fair enough.

The Bible's principles are notoriously steeped in past ideas, now discredited. We don't murder witches. The further complication, as we have seen, is that JWs make their own interpretation of Scriptural passages, one that suits them, not Jehovah perhaps. Let us not, then, claim to be following some divine plan when, on examination, it is clear JWs follow their own plan and attribute it to God. The RC Church does the same, but with a little more authority it would seem. But I am a mere observer.

Once again we have strayed far from the cross of Christ and this may be significant. When we try to bring discussion to Christ's cross, we get preoccupied by what JWs think, and it seems to run counter to talk of Christ. I wonder what that means.

Well it just so happens that what JWs think is a correlation with what Jesus thinks. So the fact that we always seem to end up with JWs just may mean that it is important.

.

[onewithhim]

That was one example in an avalanche, as I said. Do you want me to write about many more examples? I can do that ad infinitum.

I believe you could if you read the right novels.

All right, I have gotten to the bottom of you post. You wish to turn a blind eye to evil. That is your prerogative. I won't press the issue further with you.

I am grateful for that.
You have your own agenda regarding Catholicism. If someone acted secretly so as not to attract Hitler's attention would this be right or wrong? When JWs refused to fight against Hitler was this simple cowardice or did they in fact agree with Hitler? Who knows? We can uncover many sins if we have a mind to. I don't.

Can we now return to the OP which deals with the crucifixion of Christ not that of Pius xii?

I don't read novels at all. I read history books.

You haven't gotten the idea that JWs refused to fight Hitler because they were following Jesus' teachings? How blind can you be? American JWs didn't fight because that would mean (1) killing our enemies, which Jesus said not to do, and (2) killing other JWs in Germany! You're OK with Catholics over here in America fighting Catholics in Germany? How Christian is that?

No sins on JWs part. The ones in Germany, also, wouldn't fight with Hitler. Not one person was ever killed in WWII by a JW. Not one American. That doesn't impress you? Instead, hundreds if not thousands of JWs went to prisons in America, and hundreds were beheaded or shot in Germany. Don't EVER suggest that JWs were cowards or that they sided with Hitler. (I wonder what you would do if someone said they would behead you if you didn't deny your Catholic religion. Would you say, "Alright!! Go ahead! I can hardly wait"?)

Now I'm done answering your posts. Go in peace.


.

[onewithhim]

And there was no indication that the RCC did NOT agree with the internment and murder of millions of people.

I think the extremities of your view move close to being insulting to millions of people. Millions of Catholics fought against Hitler. It is quite, quite absurd to express the view that The Catholic Church went along with the Holocaust.

As I said, the OP concerns the cross. Let's return to it.

Since you're continuing on....don't you see that American Catholics were fighting against Catholics? How is that possible, if you are Jesus' disciples? He said that people could tell who were his followers by the love that they showed for each other as well as other people. (John 13:35) You would shoot someone you knew was a fellow Catholic?

Hitler, Goebbels, Goehring, Hess, and many more Nazis were Catholics. The Church gave Hitler a Requiem Mass after the war. None of them were ever excommunicated. How do you handle that knowledge? Wait! Never mind....I said we can conclude that issue. Let's not keep arguing.

[marco]

You haven't gotten the idea that JWs refused to fight Hitler because they were following Jesus' teachings? How blind can you be?

Onewithhim - I do not for a second entertain the absurd idea that JWs were cowards or were Hitler supporters. I was attempting to show that we can wrongly search for sins and reach wrong conclusions. I was trying to show it is wrong to make a blanket judgement about whole groups of people, such as Catholics or JWs.

So you have taken the very opposite meaning to the one I intended to illustrate which is: don't judge - as I have been saying all along.

[Claire Evans]

It is certainly nothing to argue over. It doesn't really matter. We might even learn in the New System of things that it WAS a cross. That's a battle we don't need to pick. There is evidence that the cross was actually a "pale" so the NWT committee shouldn't be castigated for their rendering. They might be right, they might not be..... let's not make a big deal of something that doesn't really affect our faith. Is that reasonable?

I think catnip makes some good points about the distinction between crucifixion vs impalement. Gruesome, but pertinent points.

Glad to hear that JWs do not consider the point important enough to fight over.

Still, when one reads of this, and sees the illustrations, along with the (seemingly needless and arbitrary) prohibition of celebrating birthdays and Christmas, it hinders recruitment. I say this obviously as an outsider.

Your basic theology is sound and Biblical, but those offbeat doctrines seem unessarily off-putting to some would be converts, it seems to me.

Yeah, Pagans celebrate birthdays, but so do most monoTheists. Pagans eat dinner, but so do MonoTheists.

Pagans celebrate Yule, Many MonoTheists celebrate Christmas.

JWs and other Monotheists celebrate Easter, but remember, Oestre is a Pagan fertility holiday. So why not banish Easter from your calendar while you're at it?

Seems inconsistent.

JWs don't celebrate Easter. It's so obviously pagan it's almost ridiculous.

You are right that our not celebrating holidays and birthdays is off-putting to "potential recruits."

All we can do is hope some people will see the reasons behind us not celebrating. It's tough. Three of my beautiful grandchildren ask me every year why I don't do Christmas or any of the holidays or birthdays, even though I give them more gifts all year than their relatives and friends do for holidays & birthdays. I also have pretty lights on my walls in my house to enjoy all year. I bake cookies and cakes with them throughout the year. I don't wait for a particular day. I explain that to them, and someday soon they'll get it. They are 10 and 12. Their parents are agnostic/atheist, so maybe they ask me all the time just to see how I'll react. It's OK. I trust that they have enough brains to figure out that it makes more sense to believe in God.

JWs don't celebrate Easter but do they go to church to observe the crucifixion and resurrection over that time? Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

[JehovahsWitness]

JWs don't celebrate Easter but do they go to church to observe the crucifixion and resurrection over that time? Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

Hello there,

If I may clarify.

Jehovah's Witnesses do commemorate the death of Jesus (if that is what you mean by "observe the crucifixion"... we don't use or recognize the symbol of a "cross" in our worship, since we believe Jesus died attached to an upright stake or beam). This is done on Nisan 14 which is the Jewish Passover date (usually around end of March/April on our calender). That this falls around the same period as other people are celebrating Easter has no more significance for us than it does for Jews.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate the resurrection of Christ?

No. Of course we recognize that it happened but we don't have any services or celebrations on that day (I believe that would be the Sunday for most people).

Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

I'm sorry, I don't know what that is.

source https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... t_index]=1

[2timothy316]

Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

I'm sorry, I don't know what that is.

I had to look this one up myself.

Maundy Thursday (also known as Holy Thursday, Covenant Thursday, Great and Holy Thursday, Sheer Thursday, and Thursday of Mysteries) is the Christian holy day falling on the Thursday before Easter. It commemorates the Maundy and Last Supper of Jesus Christ with the Apostles as described in the Canonical gospels. It is the fifth day of Holy Week, and is preceded by Holy Wednesday and followed by Good Friday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maundy_Thursday

[Claire Evans]

JWs don't celebrate Easter but do they go to church to observe the crucifixion and resurrection over that time? Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

Hello there,

If I may clarify.

Jehovah's Witnesses do commemorate the death of Jesus (if that is what you mean by "observe the crucifixion"... we don't use or recognize the symbol of a "cross" in our worship, since we believe Jesus died attached to an upright stake or beam). This is done on Nisan 14 which is the Jewish Passover date (usually around end of March/April on our calender). That this falls around the same period as other people are celebrating Easter has no more significance for us than it does for Jews.

There is no Biblical reference that Jesus was impaled on a stake. He did not die instantly, obviously. Catnip pointed this out. A beam is merely the top horizontal part of a cross.

John 19:32


The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.

"Jesus is said to have expired after six hours. In addition to positioning on the cross, Ward says length of survival also depended on the health of the individual being crucified and on the severity of their treatment beforehand. "They were routinely whipped, then had to carry at least part of the cross to the site of execution. By the time they get there, they're already pretty traumatized. Probably lost some blood," says Ward. For some, it could be a day or more. How they were treated once installed on the cross had significant effect, as well. "You have to maintain the weight of the body on the legs, so that the weight on the arms isn't too much, so you can breathe properly. Gradually the exhaustion gets worse and worse and you can't keep the weight up," adds Ward. "And it is known that the guards would break the legs in order to hasten death sometimes." "

http://europe.newsweek.com/how-romans-u ... 8934?rm=eu



Do Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate the resurrection of Christ?

No. Of course we recognize that it happened but we don't have any services or celebrations on that day (I believe that would be the Sunday for most people).

Do they attend a Maundy Thursday service?

I'm sorry, I don't know what that is.

"Maundy Thursday, also known as “Holy Thursday,� is the Thursday of Passion Week, one day before Good Friday (the Friday before Easter). Maundy Thursday is the name given to the day on which Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples, known as the Last Supper."

https://www.gotquestions.org/Maundy-Thursday.html

It is my favourite service of the year.

source https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... t_index]=1

At the Last Supper, Jesus obviously hadn't resurrected yet thus wouldn't have been mentioned.

It doesn't matter that the RCC incorporated pagan holidays into Christianity. It is what is in one's heart that matters.

[Claire Evans]

CONCLUSION: Jehovah's Witneseses thoroughly research the language and history of a word before making their translation decisions. While I have noted some have presented speculation and preferences, one person even present a song as "counter argument", this is all rather like refuting the theory of relativity, with a banana; convincing for some perhaps but not enough to convince those interested in academically sound research.

In throwing away hundreds of years of acceptance of Christ's cross, JWs have formed an opinion. The arguments presented are plausible but they hardly merit removing Christ from his place in history to impalement on a stake. Let us not confuse academic research with contentious conclusion.

While it might not be removing all doubt that Jesus was placed on stake and not a cross. Even if Jesus did died on a cross, the love of the cross and it's use as divine symbol is, according to the Bible, idolatry. This would be the same if people used a pole or stake rather than a cross, it would still be idolatry. An image in the 'form of any figure' used for worship is not acceptable by God.

I actually work with a woman that has a cross on every wall in her house. When I made note of it she told me the reason she does this is so to keep demons and evil spirits out of her house. To think that some piece of wood will protect her, this is dangerous thinking.

Habakkuk 2:18 “Of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman? Or an image that teaches lies? For the one who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak."

Deuteronomy 4:16-18 "so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth."

It's not the actual physical cross that scares demons but the representation of it. Without the Holy Spirit, the cross means nothing. Crosses are very effective in exorcisms.

I do have an experience where it was evident that demons were afraid of my cross.