Messiah's 2nd Coming?

[Elijah John]

Was the doctrine of the 2nd coming of Jesus forumulated because he failed to accomplish Messianic expectations the first time around? I.e., universal peace and justice, the redemption of Israel from it's enemies?

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

[JehovahsWitness]

As for #18, that's ex post facto. It's Jesus redefining the old testament's messiah. I thought he was to create the unification of the twelve tribes. It didn't happen.

Why did you think that was the purpose of the Messiah? Especially as following the Babylonian exiles representatives from all 12 tribes re-united in worship at the rebuilt Jewish temple.

As Jesus didn't rebuild the temple, he can't claim that as his doing the re-unification. Actually, the view he'll unify the tribes come more from the Talmud, not the bible. So on that point it's unclear.

Regardless of where YOU got the idea, whether you got it from the Talmud or another source, that a coming Messiah would rebuild the already rebuilt temple as a symbol of the reunification of the 12 tribes which had already happened, is obviously redundant . So your unclear interpretation of the Talmud or whatever source is not in the least bit convincing or even logical.




JW

[onewithhim]

Why did you think that was the purpose of the Messiah? Especially as following the Babylonian exiles representatives from all 12 tribes were actually re-united in worship at the rebuilt Jewish temple.

As Jesus didn't rebuild the temple, he can't claim that as his doing the re-unification. Actually, the view he'll unify the tribes come more from the Talmud, not the bible. So on that point it's unclear.

Yes, I was going to say that I'm not familiar with any intention on Jesus' part to reunify the 12 tribes. You say it is from the Talmud...well that explains it. I only count as relevant things from the Bible.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 76 by onewithhim]

Well, as for #12 I only see your interpretation. I my book that's not enough. As I pointed out Isaiah 53 speaks about someone in the past tense, not about a future messiah.

In many places in the Bible events in the future are presented as things present or past, the writers are that sure of their fulfillment. An example is Revelation 21:1-6:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heavens and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. [This hasn't happened yet.] I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: 'Look! The tent of God [heavenly Temple] is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The Former things have passed away....And he said to me: 'They have come to pass!'"

It is evident that things in the present or past tenses are mingled with things in the future, throughout the Scriptures, if one pays attention. It also happens that people speak in the first person and in the same sentence speak also in the third person. That's just the way it goes.

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[onewithhim]

I'll place my confidence in the thoughts of Jehovah.

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I'm curious as to what you know of the thoughts of Jehovah

If it is from the bible then you must know it is written by "fallible men." Or do you believe it was written directly by Jehovah's hand?

I believe that fallible men wrote down thoughts inspired by Jehovah. He didn't dictate every word.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 84 by onewithhim]

This is another point:
Had it been written by inspired believers, no portion of it would be vague. Inspired folks then are like inspired folks today; they have very understandable opinions.

Just another indicator, the Bible was written by men for men.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 84 by onewithhim]

This is another point:
Had it been written by inspired believers, no portion of it would be vague. Inspired folks then are like inspired folks today; they have very understandable opinions.

Just another indicator, the Bible was written by men for men.

I don't agree. Whenever there is involvement by humans, there will be errors. It doesn't matter what we are talking about. Jehovah saw that His crucial points had been brought out, so He let it go (that it wasn't perfect). Nothing that men do is perfect. For Jehovah to have presented to mankind a perfect tome to us, He would've had to send it down fully written by Himself. He doesn't do such things, the charlatan Joseph Smith's story notwithstanding.


(Actually, I don't see that any of Jehovah's pronouncements are "vague." Do you have something in mind?)

[Willum]

[Replying to post 86 by onewithhim]

Why does your opinion trump observations about human nature?
I am not talking about errors.
I am talking about vagary.

Nothing men does is perfect, nothing God does is perfect, there is no perfection.

How does your opinion over-ride what we observe about people?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 86 by onewithhim]

Why does your opinion trump observations about human nature?
I am not talking about errors.
I am talking about vagary.

Nothing men does is perfect, nothing God does is perfect, there is no perfection.

How does your opinion over-ride what we observe about people?

Because nothing man does is perfect, so you find that a valid reason for saying that "nothing GOD does is perfect" either??? The Bible says that EVERYTHING God does is perfect. (Deuteronomy 32:4) You wish to contradict the Bible? (That is your prerogative, but most people here are basing their arguments ON the Bible.)

I have not over-ridden anything you say about your observations about PEOPLE.


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[dio9]

[Replying to post 88 by onewithhim]

We don't need a Messiah to rebuild the Temple.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 88 by onewithhim]

We don't need a Messiah to rebuild the Temple.

What has that got to do with anything I said?

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