Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[Claire Evans]

Yes even Satan the Devil get saved in the end, because God loves His enemies, see Matthew 5:43-48.

After Satan has no more power then Satan becomes harmless and so saving Satan does not have to include purifying Satan.

I can't believe what I am reading. Satan doesn't want to be saved. The source of all evil can't be saved.

It is God's will that all come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9, and when it says "all" then it means "all", as in all people and all Demons and all Angels and all sinners, as in no one (1) being left out or lost.

And God's will - will be done - on earth as it is in Heaven.

Of course God does not want any person to be lost. However, everyone has a choice. If they don't repent, they cannot be saved.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10

9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Revelation 2:5

5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


Romans 2:5

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of Gods wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

And let's see what Jesus said:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be[d] brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.


Matthew 23:

29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and youre in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?

It does not matter if any one wants to be saved or not because the will of God is not trapped by the wants of people nor the wants of spirits.

We all must learn to have mercy and forgiveness for everyone, and that includes for the Demons and for Satan too, and for the worst sinners of humanity.

God is not going to let you or anyone go into eternal life holding a grudge against the Devil.

So evil people are going to come kicking and screaming into heaven against their will? No one with sin can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Why else did Jesus die for our sins? Satan is the source of all evil. He can never part with sin. It is his essence. Who do you think Satan is? Some naughty little boy? Jesus sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane because of the presence of the devil and the realization He was going to hell. You need a serious wake-up call. You've clearly never felt the wrath of Satan.

[JP Cusick]

Of course God does not want any person to be lost. However, everyone has a choice. If they don't repent, they cannot be saved.

So evil people are going to come kicking and screaming into heaven against their will? No one with sin can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

People really have very few choices, as like choosing between chocolate or vanilla, but they are superficial choices of little significance, because the biggest events in life we have no choice at all.

We did not choose to be born, did not choose the Country or society we were born into, did not choose our health or defects, did not choose our parents or family members, did not choose gender or race or attributes, we age without choice and death waits for us all without our choice, so choosing our spouse or type of car is not such a big choice as people try to make it.

No one gets to choose about being resurrected - I do not want to be resurrected - and that choice does not work, people do not want to go to the Judgment Day and that is not our choice, and people do not want salvation and they just do not have that choice.

The people will be changed (no choice) as is done in this text:
Ezekiel 11:
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
-

All of us sinful people will be changed, and it will be wonderful, and it is not our choice.

[The Tanager]

It's just what I was taught in a Western Civ class. Of course my attitude towards it comes thru in the way I described it.

It makes sense to me, because it gives god motive for behavior that would otherwise be just insane.

But if you want citations or authority, then, no, I don't have those.

I was just looking for evidence and reasoning, since I see a much different understanding when looking at Christian texts and claims.

[The Tanager]

The law of nature that states everything has a vibration.

But why think souls are a part of physical nature that is studied by science? Where is the science behind this? Where is the science behind thoughts being vibrations? Why trust this Altered States website on these matters?

Then the co-creator can just make the energy again. There's a constant battle.

He's not making the same energy because that was destroyed. This would be new energy.

"The definition of an open system assumes that there are supplies of energy that cannot be depleted; in practice, this energy is supplied from some source in the surrounding environment, which can be treated as infinite for the purposes of study. One type of open system is the radiant energy system, which receives its energy from solar radiation " an energy source that can be regarded as inexhaustible for all practical purposes."

So, why do you think energy can't be destroyed in an open system? The above just talks about new energy coming into the system.

Because some medical experts have confirmed it. It is not possible to have any recollection at all.

I won't just take anything on authority and I hate reading links. Sum the argument up.

This is why we have consciousness after death. After all, how does God have consciousness?

This doesn't make sense to me. You think God is dead?

But unquenchable means there is no final destruction. It just goes on and on forever. Once a chaff has been burnt, it's finished. The fire has been quenched.

So, you think Matthew 3:12 is talking about chaff that never fully burns up? There is no such chaff. Why would Jesus use this, then?

Since you admit Satan would prefer annihilation, then what punishment is it to the evil? Atheists believe it is a fact of life that there is no life after death. It's natural. It isn't a punishment.

It's a fate worse than eternal life. That is all that is needed to be a punishment or consequence. Why must it be more than that?

Since you admit Satan would prefer annihilation, then what punishment is it to the evil? Atheists believe it is a fact of life that there is no life after death. It's natural. It isn't a punishment.

I'm not assuming it is. I'm saying it isn't clear, so we look at the rest of the context of the immediate passage, the book it is in and Scripture as a whole, instead of assuming one way or the other.

I've already addressed this in a response to another person, but Mark 9:44-49 is quoting from Isaiah 66:24 which I understand speaks to the practice of leaving the dead (ceased-to-be) bodies of one's enemies in battles out on the battlefield as a sign of shame and contempt. The worm eating their bodies was shameful and contemptable to those still living. It's the shame of the acts that doesn't die, not the people that experience torment; they have ceased to be. Why would Jesus use that imagery to speak of eternal conscious torment?

As to Luke 16, why think this is a true story as opposed to a parable or something like that?

And even assuming it is meant literally, why think this is speaking about eternal Hell rather than the intermediate state of those awaiting the final resurrection?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 82 by JP Cusick]


"All of us sinful people will be changed, and it will be wonderful, and it is not our choice."

In that case I'd have to see God as being unjust.

Why tell man not to kill, not to steal, to love the neighbor, to forgive etc.
if those who do opposite are awarded with the same life.

[JP Cusick]

[Replying to post 82 by JP Cusick]

"All of us sinful people will be changed, and it will be wonderful, and it is not our choice."

In that case I'd have to see God as being unjust.

Why tell man not to kill, not to steal, to love the neighbor, to forgive etc.
if those who do opposite are awarded with the same life.

The reason is because there are two (2) different kinds of salvation = physical and then spiritual.

It is an extreme form of justice based on God's love and forgiveness - with malice to none.

The spiritual is to be saved after death which Jesus already paid the penalty in full, and even with God's forgiveness after death it is not going to be easy to live for eternity in Heaven or on earth.

The physical salvation is here-and-now in this life because the commandments tell us how to live better in this life, as in to stop addictions and to avoid going to jail and to raise a family and to live this life without the drudgery which comes from sinning.

God tells us how to live in this life here and now - but later after death in the next life then the rules change - as on Judgment Day then every person will be a believer - and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess - and then every person will become saved.

[Claire Evans]

Of course God does not want any person to be lost. However, everyone has a choice. If they don't repent, they cannot be saved.

So evil people are going to come kicking and screaming into heaven against their will? No one with sin can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

People really have very few choices, as like choosing between chocolate or vanilla, but they are superficial choices of little significance, because the biggest events in life we have no choice at all.

We did not choose to be born, did not choose the Country or society we were born into, did not choose our health or defects, did not choose our parents or family members, did not choose gender or race or attributes, we age without choice and death waits for us all without our choice, so choosing our spouse or type of car is not such a big choice as people try to make it.

No evil cannot be near the Lord. So how can those full of sin be in the Kingdom of Heaven? You cannot ignore the scriptures I gave you. How can you say we don't have choices? One can choose to reject or accept Jesus as their saviour.

We did not choose what circumstances we are born into but we have can choose what we do with it.

No one gets to choose about being resurrected - I do not want to be resurrected - and that choice does not work, people do not want to go to the Judgment Day and that is not our choice, and people do not want salvation and they just do not have that choice.

How can you be condemned on Judgement day and get salvation at the same time?

The people will be changed (no choice) as is done in this text:
Ezekiel 11:
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
-

All of us sinful people will be changed, and it will be wonderful, and it is not our choice.

Being transformed by God happens when we choose Him and allow Him to transform us. Why can't God make evil people good now if they don't have a choice?

You cannot just disregard Jesus' words.


Mark 3

28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.

[Claire Evans]

The law of nature that states everything has a vibration.

But why think souls are a part of physical nature that is studied by science? Where is the science behind this? Where is the science behind thoughts being vibrations? Why trust this Altered States website on these matters?

Then the co-creator can just make the energy again. There's a constant battle.

He's not making the same energy because that was destroyed. This would be new energy.

There is no proof energy gets destroyed in an open system let alone in the spiritual dimension.

"The definition of an open system assumes that there are supplies of energy that cannot be depleted; in practice, this energy is supplied from some source in the surrounding environment, which can be treated as infinite for the purposes of study. One type of open system is the radiant energy system, which receives its energy from solar radiation " an energy source that can be regarded as inexhaustible for all practical purposes."

So, why do you think energy can't be destroyed in an open system? The above just talks about new energy coming into the system.

The energy cannot be depleted in the open system as the quote says. Do you have a source that says energy can be destroyed in an open system?

Because some medical experts have confirmed it. It is not possible to have any recollection at all.

I won't just take anything on authority and I hate reading links. Sum the argument up.

When one is clinically dead, or brain dead, there is no consciousness. Yet people have recollected the conversations of surgeons while being brain dead. It appears that consciousness is separate from the brain.

This is why we have consciousness after death. After all, how does God have consciousness?

This doesn't make sense to me. You think God is dead?

No. What I am saying is that consciousness is not dependent on a body because God doesn't have one.

But unquenchable means there is no final destruction. It just goes on and on forever. Once a chaff has been burnt, it's finished. The fire has been quenched.

So, you think Matthew 3:12 is talking about chaff that never fully burns up? There is no such chaff. Why would Jesus use this, then?

No. Jesus will treat the hypocrite, unrighteous religious men as chaff. That is to cast them aside when they are burnt because they are useless. When chaff is destroyed, it cannot be blown back to mingle with the wheat. The wicked will be never mingle with the righteous again.; the unquenchable fire is the conscious eternal state of hell.

Since you admit Satan would prefer annihilation, then what punishment is it to the evil? Atheists believe it is a fact of life that there is no life after death. It's natural. It isn't a punishment.

It's a fate worse than eternal life. That is all that is needed to be a punishment or consequence. Why must it be more than that?

Atheists don't think so. It's a natural thing to them. No punishment to them. If I was wicked and I had to choose between oblivion and eternal torment, I'd choose the former. If one is in oblivion, they cannot be aware they are being punished.

Since you admit Satan would prefer annihilation, then what punishment is it to the evil? Atheists believe it is a fact of life that there is no life after death. It's natural. It isn't a punishment.

I'm not assuming it is. I'm saying it isn't clear, so we look at the rest of the context of the immediate passage, the book it is in and Scripture as a whole, instead of assuming one way or the other.

I've already addressed this in a response to another person, but Mark 9:44-49 is quoting from Isaiah 66:24 which I understand speaks to the practice of leaving the dead (ceased-to-be) bodies of one's enemies in battles out on the battlefield as a sign of shame and contempt. The worm eating their bodies was shameful and contemptable to those still living. It's the shame of the acts that doesn't die, not the people that experience torment; they have ceased to be. Why would Jesus use that imagery to speak of eternal conscious torment?

The worm is identified with its owner; the one that is being consumed by worms for ever. Of course a worm cannot feed off a corpse once a corpse is no longer edible for a worm. A worm that never dies will cause eternal torment. This is graphic imagery yet Jesus was emphasizing the horrors of hell.

Matthew 5


30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

As to Luke 16, why think this is a true story as opposed to a parable or something like that?

And even assuming it is meant literally, why think this is speaking about eternal Hell rather than the intermediate state of those awaiting the final resurrection?

If there is no consciousness after death, how can an intermediate state exist?

How can the rich man be condemned to hell before Judgment Day?

[JP Cusick]

How can you be condemned on Judgement day and get salvation at the same time?

That happens based on the eternal concepts of love and forgiveness.

The sins are condemned - while the person gets saved.

See it said here = 1 Corinthians 3:15-16

Why can't God make evil people good now if they don't have a choice?

God really does forcibly suppresses evil people against their will - as in the worst sinners being put into jail (gaol) or into prison or else just being killed at the scene of their crime (their sin). See here = Romans 13:1-14

And God punishes every other person here-and-now even for our smallest of sins, see here = Galatians 6:7-8

We can say that people choose our own sins, but it is not a fair nor free choice, because the people are improperly educated, spiritually blind, live under the pressure of this evil world, we have to make a living, protect our loved ones, and people suffer from addictions, from mental depression, from being defeated over and over again, and most (if not all) sins are done out of simple ignorance.

And there is a beautiful doctrines which is factually true = that God visits those in jails and in prison, see Matthew 25:34-36

You cannot just disregard Jesus' words.

Mark 3
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.

I say that we are all guilty of eternal sin, and even if most sins are forgiven - our sins will never be forgotten, and eternal sin or eternal punishment does not mean eternal continuous punishing.

We must not disregard Jesus' words, but we do need to apply all of the words, including that Jesus tells us that the Father loves His enemies, so punishment from our loving Father does not mean constant never ending punishing without end. See Matthew 5:43-48

In the text you quote above of Mark 3:28 it says that every person = "will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies" (all forgiven, not punished) and then it is saying that only one (1) sin will not be forgiven, and I expect that virtually no one ever really gives blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 89 by JP Cusick]


"We can say that people choose our own sins, but it is not a fair nor free choice, because the people are improperly educated, spiritually blind, live under the pressure of this evil world, we have to make a living, protect our loved ones, and people suffer from addictions, from mental depression, from being defeated over and over again, and most (if not all) sins are done out of simple ignorance. "

Certainly true and a just Judge sees it all but there are those who have every opportunity and knowledge to do the right thing and they willfully do not. It is not all about 'believing'. God is love, heaven is place of love and harmony. So God forgives me everything but how is He going to make me love Him and others in heaven if my heart is full of hate. 'I will give them a clean heart...' yes to those who desire it.

Can you force someone to love you?

We know that pretending love in marriage does not work.