For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I do appreciatebuou passion and respect for scripture.

In think that is a good thing.



Have a nice s evening

JW

Thanks, it was a good discussion.

[dakoski]

QUESTION Does Genesis 18:1 indicate there are two JEHOVAHS?

Any suggestion that the personal name Jehovah is the designated personal name of more than one individual person is in direct contradiction to the explicit statement in scripture found in Deuteronomy 6:4 which reads

DEUTERONOMY 6:4

Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. NWT

However there are scriptures in the bible, describing angelic visitations, where individuals are addressed as "Jehovah", for example Genesis 18:1 which reads in the NWT as follows

Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him [ Abraham] among the big trees of Mamʹre ...

QUESTION Since Jehovah told Moses no human can see Him and live, does that mean Abraham interacted with an angel that shares the divine name JEHOVAH?

When YHWH revealed himself to Moses at the burning Bush he gave no indication that the name was to be shared , on the contrary he declared

EXODUS 3:15

This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation

Notable in its absence is YHWH declaring this is OUR name. ( also See Matthew 6:9). So if God does not share his name with angels (or anyone), how can scriptures like Genesis 18:1 be explained?


ENVOYS AND PREPRESENTATIVES

Since the bible is explicit in the exclusivity if the name, it is reasonable to conclude that any such address is a reflection of being a representative or special envoy speaking for God.

To illustrate: If former Secrtary of State Hillary Clinton goes to Russia to represent President Obama, a headline might read "OBAMA seeks peace with Putin" even though Obama did not make the trip and President Putin spoke only to his representative. We might even read "America holds olive branch to Russia" but since both are countries and neither have literal hands to hold branches, the headline is impossible. We understand that REPRESENTATIVES of the people of both countries were in communication.

CONCLUSION: There is absolutely no biblical reason to conclude that when angels were addresses as "Jehovah" it was not done so in recognition that they, on those occassions represented Jehovah, rather than that they shared the same name

I have to admit the repeat posting to summarise your view is a bit confusing as I've responded to all of these points a number of times already in the thread - and don't have any intention of repeating my responses yet again. But that's fine, I understand that you want to provide a coherent summary of what you think.

But I'll respond very briefly here:

I've responded to 2 Timothy 3:16 (username that is) who also quoted Deut 6:4. The issue is that echad can mean numerical oneness or unity. Given earlier Scriptures in the Pentateuch then unity seems to be a more likely understanding of the meaning of the word. For a fuller response you can go back to post 17.

You won't be surprised that I find your conclusion completely unwarranted and with zero Biblical support. As I've tried to show in earlier posts - no other representative is ever referred to as Jehovah other than the angel of Jehovah - so I think this conclusion is contrary to Scripture. But it was good to hear your perspective.

All the best to you and have a good evening.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 16 by brianbbs67]

Here is the JPS, the original take on that scripture. I must ask, though, could not God, YHVH, appear as he wishes to people? It is only the true face of God we can not see. Wouldn't require 3 personages.

I'm not sure what distinction you are drawing - a 'true face' and a 'fake face'? I'm not sure where Scripture speaks of a 'fake face' of God.

I agree YHVH can appear to us as he wishes, I'm simply delineating what I think the Scriptures teach about this. Its not my opinion, its just what I believe the Bible tells us about how he wishes to appear. Exodus 33:20 and John 1:18 tells us God the Father has never appeared to any human. However he wishes another to reveal him, a person also sharing the divine name YHVH but who speaks to people face to face - e.g. Exodus 33:11 and John 1:18.

I missed a great dicusion here. If this was covered please, disregard. Its not a matter to me of true or fake. God is spirit. Apparantly, we can't look at His spirit form and survive the experience. So, He appeared in human form to Moses and others. As Christ said, "those that ate and drank saw the Lord(YHVH)." Really the question is, whose quote is off or misrepresented or translated. Is it Christ or John? Moses admits a face to face, along with AAron and his sons and 70 elders. So, does Abraham.

[polonius]

Genesis 18:1-2 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
Abraham’s Visitors. 1 [a]The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. 2 Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground,

Dakowski posted

Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Question In what bible do you find any claim that any of the angels was really Jehovah?

[dakoski]

Genesis 18:1-2 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
Abraham’s Visitors. 1 [a]The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. 2 Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground,

Dakowski posted

Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Question In what bible do you find any claim that any of the angels was really Jehovah?

Every translation that I've ever read, see Genesis 18:1, 20, 22, 26. Of the three that visit Abraham, two of the angels are distinguished from Jehovah in 19:1.

Genesis 19:23-24 distinguishes Jehovah who speaks with Abraham and goes down to Sodom from Jehovah in the heavens.

[ttruscott]

For which Jehovah should we witness?

The one who reveals HIMself to you as your GOD...the one who opens your eyes to your sins so that you cry out to be punished for your guilt.

[Tcg]

For which Jehovah should we witness?

The one who reveals HIMself to you as your GOD...

That would be no one.

the one who opens your eyes to your sins so that you cry out to be punished for your guilt.

Still no one.

What else have you got?

[dakoski]

[Replying to brianbbs67]

I missed a great dicusion here. If this was covered please, disregard. Its not a matter to me of true or fake. God is spirit. Apparantly, we can't look at His spirit form and survive the experience. So, He appeared in human form to Moses and others. As Christ said, "those that ate and drank saw the Lord(YHVH)." Really the question is, whose quote is off or misrepresented or translated. Is it Christ or John? Moses admits a face to face, along with AAron and his sons and 70 elders. So, does Abraham.

I would be wary of reading on a dualistic view of physical and spiritual which comes from Greek philosophy onto the Hebrew Bible.

Both John and Paul contrast spirit and flesh, but that's not to reflect a low view of the physical world. Flesh is imagery for the world in opposition to God rather than a rejection of all things physical. Paul said of Jesus 'For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form' (Colossians 2:9). The fullness of the Deity was revealed in Jesus in bodily form not a 'watered down' version.

So I think its more the case that the Father wills it that no one may come to him except through the Son. To approach the Father without the Son is to dishonour the Son and his eternal role as mediator between people and God.

[polonius]

Genesis 18:1-2 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
Abraham’s Visitors. 1 [a]The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. 2 Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground,

Dakowski posted

Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Question In what bible do you find any claim that any of the angels was really Jehovah?

Every translation that I've ever read, see Genesis 18:1, 20, 22, 26. Of the three that visit Abraham, two of the angels are distinguished from Jehovah in 19:1.

Genesis 19:23-24 distinguishes Jehovah who speaks with Abraham and goes down to Sodom from Jehovah in the heavens.

RESPONSE: Please provide the citation for the Bible, chapter , and verse that you quoted.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to brianbbs67]

I missed a great dicusion here. If this was covered please, disregard. Its not a matter to me of true or fake. God is spirit. Apparantly, we can't look at His spirit form and survive the experience. So, He appeared in human form to Moses and others. As Christ said, "those that ate and drank saw the Lord(YHVH)." Really the question is, whose quote is off or misrepresented or translated. Is it Christ or John? Moses admits a face to face, along with AAron and his sons and 70 elders. So, does Abraham.

I would be wary of reading on a dualistic view of physical and spiritual which comes from Greek philosophy onto the Hebrew Bible.

Both John and Paul contrast spirit and flesh, but that's not to reflect a low view of the physical world. Flesh is imagery for the world in opposition to God rather than a rejection of all things physical. Paul said of Jesus 'For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form' (Colossians 2:9). The fullness of the Deity was revealed in Jesus in bodily form not a 'watered down' version.

So I think its more the case that the Father wills it that no one may come to him except through the Son. To approach the Father without the Son is to dishonour the Son and his eternal role as mediator between people and God.

If Christ was given the fullness of the Diety, everyone who looked upon him would have perished and there would be no religion or anything else. So, his human being was diluted a bit.

I agree that CHrist is the mediator and that is how God wants it.