What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[William]

@

JehovahsWitness: The Christian bible develops the question "Is there any hope for the dead? Will God bring any of the dead back to life? For some people presently dead, the answer is yes, for the wicked the answer is no, they will remain dead (non-existent) forever. Such individuals are described as being in Gehenna, Tartarus or the lake of fire.

William: It is a nice theory with one rather large hole in it. The Christian bible clearly has its central figure being quoted as saying otherwise.

Matthew: Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ...
...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

William: Not to forget the gnashing of teeth...
One has to engage in wondering why Jesus did not say 'eternal death' since that would be the opposite of the reward of eternal life.
Also if the eternal fire did the job of disposing of the wicked, why does it need to be eternal?

The better theory is because all Entities are indeed eternal and thus cannot be killed/made dead.
Jesus knows this and warns us about the existence of an area of the Metaphysical Universe which is "hell" for all who experience it.
Jesus knows that what creates the experience of hell is the individuals beliefs and subsequent behaviors, which is why he also explained how to avoid it altogether,

From what you have shared of your own beliefs, you will experience those beliefs, so for you, hell will be something you see your idea of GOD place the wicked into and these will be destroyed through death. For you, there will be no beings suffering for eternity.

That is the mansion-experience that you will create for yourself, as per the requirements of your personal beliefs.

John: In My Father’s house are many mansions. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?


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[onewithhim]

I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not.

People may agree on all or some of the following:
- All people go to Sheol
- There is no judgment of the dead
- There is no punishment of the dead
- Sheol can refer to a physical location (grave, pit), a spiritual location (where all the souls of the dead go to), or used in an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

No, we cannot all agree that Sheol is not similar to the NT concept of hell. It is exactly the same as "hell" in the NT.

One proof of this is to compare a mention of Sheol in the OT with the mention of the that identical scripture in the NT.

"For you will not leave me in the Grave [SHEOL]. You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption." (Psalm 16:10)

And then, quoting Psalm 16:10: "Because you will not leave me in the Grave [Hades,or, hell], nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." (Acts 2:27)

The word "Sheol" in the Hebrew compares and is interchangeable with, the word "hell [Hades]" in the Greek.

[onewithhim]

otseng said:
I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not.

People may agree on all or some of the following:
- All people go to Sheol
- There is no judgment of the dead
- There is no punishment of the dead
- Sheol can refer to a physical location (grave, pit), a spiritual location (where all the souls of the dead go to), or used in an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).
….

I agree with all on your list if we're only referring to the dead in Sheol. But I believe many Christians equate "Hell" with the Lake of Fire reference. Eventhough equating the two is wrong, but the concept of eternal punishment is still mentioned in the Bible in my opinion.

In my opinion it is NOT mentioned in the Bible.

You are right, IMO, that "Hell" and "the Lake of Fire" are not the same, at all. Hell is the Biblical GRAVE. The Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC for complete destruction. The scriptures focus on what a fire does to something, rather than the fire itself to make a point. It is what you have AFTER a fire has been applied to something---which is nothing. That is the point of the Lake of Fire AND "the fire that is prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration.

[onewithhim]

So you purpose the references to sheol is an "idiomatic expression" representing what?

It depends on the context. But, I'm not going to elaborate since it's not the main point of this thread.

I for one believe that SHEOL in the Hebrew bible is exactly the equivalent to the bible "New testament" reference to "hades" (hell) , namely the symbolic grave of mankind.

Sure, Sheol could be the same as Hades, but what about Gehenna, Tartarus and the lake of fire?

Gehenna was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem. Jesus used it to make a point about what will happen to the wicked (who don't repent). Gehenna was always burning with fire. The fire completely destroyed things that were thrown there. So what was the RESULT of the fire? What did the fire DO to the things that it burned up? Those things didn't exist any longer. They were completely obliterated. That was the meaning of Jesus' reference to Gehenna, and translators err when they translate the word "Gehenna" as "hell" as well as the word "Hades." They are not the same.

Gehenna = complete annihilation
Hades = the Grave

Translators have rendered both words as "hell"

They have also translated "Tartarus" as "hell!" It is nowhere near the definition of "hell." It is not the Grave, and it is not a specific place---as the Greek mythologists would have you believe. It is a STATE OF BEING that the fallen angels were consigned to---a dark spiritual condition. This is apparent when we consider Jude 6. This is the "prison" that the fallen angels are said to be in (I Peter 3:19,20), referring to their debased spiritual condition.

The Lake of Fire is the same as the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and also Gehenna. They all refer to fire, which SYMBOLIZES the complete obliteration of the wicked. They will exist no more.

[JehovahsWitness]

So you purpose the references to sheol is an "idiomatic expression" representing what?

It depends on the context. But, I'm not going to elaborate since it's not the main point of this thread.

Fair enough.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

— Hitchens's Razor

People may agree on all or some of the following: - Sheol ....doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression...

I doubt any thinking reader would agree based on what you have said since nothing has been presented to support the proposal.



JW

[otseng]

I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not.

People may agree on all or some of the following:
- All people go to Sheol
- There is no judgment of the dead
- There is no punishment of the dead
- Sheol can refer to a physical location (grave, pit), a spiritual location (where all the souls of the dead go to), or used in an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

No, we cannot all agree that Sheol is not similar to the NT concept of hell. It is exactly the same as "hell" in the NT.

One proof of this is to compare a mention of Sheol in the OT with the mention of the that identical scripture in the NT.

"For you will not leave me in the Grave [SHEOL]. You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption." (Psalm 16:10)

And then, quoting Psalm 16:10: "Because you will not leave me in the Grave [Hades,or, hell], nor will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." (Acts 2:27)

The word "Sheol" in the Hebrew compares and is interchangeable with, the word "hell [Hades]" in the Greek.

My point is hell in the OT (Sheol) is not the same as hell in the NT (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus).

Yes, I can agree that Sheol is similar to Hades. But, Sheol is not similar to Gehenna or Tartarus.

Translations of the Bible make an assumption that all three terms used in the NT refer to the same place, so a single word hell is used for all three. I believe it's a false assumption since Gehenna and Tartarus do not fit the descriptions of Sheol. It makes it too confusing and it's a part of the reason we have such problems today with the concept of hell.

I've given all the references to hell (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus). If we just look at these passages, it is not the same as the typical modern view of hell. We have added a lot to the concept of hell (even the word hell itself makes things confusing) that are from extra-Biblical sources (other religions, cultures, literature, folklore, etc).

So, we need to first find out what exactly the Bible does say about hell. I've already provided my list. If people have anything to add, please do so. After we agree on what does the Bible say about hell, we'll discuss the concepts of hell that are not in the Bible.

[PinSeeker]

Many great theologians in history have been asked which doctrine they struggle with most. and their answers have most often been: “Hell.� It’s comforting, in my opinion, to know that theological giants have wrestled and still wrestle with something so many of us have struggled with our whole Christian lives. The doctrine of hell is uncomfortable for most of us. However, I think our understanding of hell shapes our view of the Gospel, God’s holiness, and our depravity. In my opinion, if we don’t accept the reality of hell, we won’t rightly understand the glory of the Gospel.

Even a cursory read-through shows Jesus talked about hell plenty; in fact, Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the Bible. In Luke 16, he describes a great chasm over which “none may cross from there to us.� In Matthew 25, Jesus tells of a time when people will be separated into two groups, one entering into his presence, the other banished to “fire� -- both eternal existences.

Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness� (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna� (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned against the absolute reality of hell.

Jesus has to talk about hell because it is the fate that awaits all people apart from him. Because of Adam’s sin, we’re all guilty and deserve God’s eternal punishment. Contrary to popular belief, hell is not a place where God sends those who have been especially bad; it’s our default destination. We need a rescuer or we stand condemned. So we’re left with two options: stay in our state of depravity and be eternally punished, or submit to the Savior and accept his gift of redemption.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 86 by otseng]

So what are your conclusions?

I have outlined the exact biblical meaning of each word in context, along with how each word relates to each other. Do you feel ready to do the same?


JW

[2timothy316]

Taking at face value, Gehenna is a literal physical location. "Gehenna is a small valley in Jerusalem. In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

That is correct. By Jesus' time though, it was known as simply a place where people burned their trash. On occasion, dead criminals thought not to be worth burying were burned in that trash heap.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gehenna

This 'garbage center' was always on fire so as to burn up the garbage to ash, completely destroying it. The symbolism is that of a person being thought of as garbage, good for nothing. The fire was not the focus of Jesus' teaching but why something is thrown into Gehenna.

[2timothy316]

Tartarus is used once in 2 Peter about angels being cast into it.

[2Pe 2:4 KJV] 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Tartarus is not for dead humans at all. It was only later that they made it to be a place were humans go. Yet there is no instance in the Bible where a human is bound in Tartarus.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm

Does this mean that those angels in 2 Peter 2:4 are in some kind of prison? Well, Revelation 20:1-3 speaks of an abyss that Satan will be cast into but it is interesting that Revelation doesn't use the word Tartarus. It uses the word abysson. Apparently these are not the same thing.

Peter is talking about the current state of angels in his own time period. The casting into the abyss mentioned in Revelation is not described as happening until the future. I believe the key to understanding what the Bible means by Tartarus is the word zophos that is also in the scripture.

Zophos is deep darkness. It correlates more with a state of mind. HELPS says, "murky, appalling gloom, referring to darkness so dense and foreboding it is "felt"." Jude 6 says the same thing about angels being bound by dark gloom only no mention of Tartarus. So angels in bonds of dense darkness most likely refers to their mental state. Denied all light. Job 38:15 notes that 'light' is held back from the wicked. Jesus is light. (1 Tim 6:15, 16) “God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him.� (1Jo 1:5) Knowledge is light. (2Co 4:6)

Angels in Tartarus are not in an actual place but they have been bound mentally in darkness. They do not know truth and knowledge but are bound by lies. Wicked acts are carried out in darkness.

So the transliteration from Tartarus to 'hell' is very poor indeed.