How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?

[Yahu]

Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.

The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.

Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.

Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.

Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.

Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?

The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'

So how is Lucifer a man?

[Yahu]

Now back to the actual topic of the thread.

If Lucifer is a reference to an ancient pagan god which corresponds with Apollo in the Greek pantheon, shouldn't we be able to find other references to the other Greek gods among the Old Testament writings?

In fact there are many. For example both Athena and Hermes are among those mentioned in scripture. Of course they were referenced by their names in other languages and societies.

For example, Athena was Neith to the Egypians and Anath to the Canaanites. One thing to note is that they all 3 contain the same consonants 'th' and 'n'. Hebrew and Greek are written in different directions, left to right verses right to left. There were no vowels in ancient Hebrew but got vowel points added in later to show how to pronounce the vowel-less words.

Now where is she referenced in scripture? Mostly she is references within place or individuals names. For example Bethanath is the town Jeremiah is from meaning 'house/temple of Anath'. Of course the city name was named by the Canaanites.
Another city is named Anathoth. We even have one of the judges of Israel before the kings was a 'son of Anath'.

Jud 3:31 And after him was Shamgar the son of Anath, which slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad: and he also delivered Israel.

Jud 5:6 In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were unoccupied, and the travellers walked through byways.

Now if you read the Baal Cycle you find many references to Anath as the name of one of the Canaanite goddesses.

As for Neith, it is found in the name of Joseph's Egyptian wife's name.

Ge 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph’s name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
Ge 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.
Ge 46:20 And unto Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.

0621 תנס� ‘Acᵉnath aw-se-nath’
of Egyptian derivation; ; n pr f

AV-Asenath 3; 3

Asenath= "belonging to the goddess Neith"

1) the wife of Joseph

Wiki states:
The Greek historian Herodotus (c. 484–425 BC) noted that the Egyptian citizens of Sais in Egypt worshipped Neith and that they identified her with Athena. The Timaeus, a dialogue written by Plato, mirrors that identification with Athena, possibly as a result of the identification of both goddesses with war and weaving.[6]

Now the Babylonian god Nebo is the Greek god Hermes. Nebo is referenced many times in scripture. The Greeks called him 'the messanger of the gods' while Nebo actually means 'prophet'.

Isa 46:1 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.

05019 רצ�נדכובנ Nᵉbuwkadne’tstsar neb-oo-kad-nets-tsar’ or רצ�נדכבנ Nᵉbukadne’tstsar (#2Ki 24:1, 10) neb-oo-kad-nets-tsar’ or רצנדכובנ Nᵉbuwkadnetstsar (#Es 2:6; Da 1:18) neb-oo-kad-nets-tsar’ or רצ�רדכובנ Nᵉbuwkadre’tstsar neb-oo-kad-rets-tsar’ or רוצ�רדכובנ Nᵉbuwkadre’tstsowr (#Ezr 2:1; Jer 49:28) neb-oo-kad-rets-tsore’

of foreign derivation; ; n pr m
AV-Nebuchadrezzar 31, Nebuchadnezzar 29; 60

Nebuchadnezzar or Nebuchadrezzar= "may Nebo protect the crown"

1) the great king of Babylon who captured Jerusalem and carried Judah captive

Even king Nebuchadezzar had a reference to Nebo.

05015 ובנ Nᵉbow neb-o’
probably of foreign derivation; ;{ See TWOT on 1279} {See TWOT on 1280}

AV-Nebo 13; 13

Nebo= "prophet"

n pr m
1) a Babylonian deity who presided over learning and letters; corresponds to Greek Hermes, Latin Mercury, and Egyptian Thoth

[onewithhim]

Just how are the demons imprisoned? In a literal place? No, because they are said to be involved in the affairs of this world.

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:11,12, NASB)

How can the demons be in a literal prison when they are controlling the world "in the heavenly places"?

No, they are in a figurative prison---a condition of spiritual darkness. They won't be literally imprisoned until Armageddon, when they will all go into the "abyss." (Revelation 20:1,2)

You speak of an "anti-christ spirit." Doesn't that spirit originate with Satan? I think so. He is "deceiving the whole world," manipulating everything to fight as best he can with Jehovah and His people. (Revelation 12:9)

[/b]

Where have I ever said demons are in prison?

I never claimed that demons, 'evil spirits' are in prison! I claim ALL fallen angels are in prison. They are NOT demons. Demons are spirits of dead evil individual that serve the enemy that are let out of Sheol/hell. The most powerful of those evil spirits are the spirits of the dead Nephilim.



Lucifer is a half man/half angel hybrid born on the earth post-flood who was worshiped as a god because of his angelic form at Babel. The anti-christ spirit is the spirit of the pagan god Baal who was the son of Ashtoreth. Baal was 1/4 nephilim. Ashtoreth/Diana is the twin sister of Lucifer, ie Diana Luciferah. She is also 1/2 hybrid.

It is the anti-christ spirit that controls the spirits in 'heavenly places' as being one of the 3 spiritual realms.

When the four angels that were Yah's representatives on earth were locked up at the Euphrates, four others took over their positions of authority. Yah gave dominion of the earth to mankind, not to angels. Because of their births on earth, they could take dominion.

Now of those four angels, the males each ruled over a different spiritual realm; the air (2nd heaven, heavenly places), the sea and Hades/Sheol.

The anti-christ spirit took over the spirits in the realm of air. The Jezebel spirit, actually Ashtoreth her goddess, took over the realm of sea and Lucifer/Satan took over Hades/Sheol. The fourth lesser principality was who the Canaanites called Asherah, their human mother who rules over the purely human evil spirits. Demons are the descendants of angels that crossed with mankind and animals. Once dead, those beings become evil spirits as stated in Enoch.

Now Here is a quote from 1 Enoch 15. Jude quotes right out of 1 Enoch 1 right after he talked about the angels that sinned. Enoch was a commonly known book in Synagogues. It was Augustine that kept it out of the Western Canon. It is a part of other Canons like the Ethopian bible.

Enoch Book 1, Chapter 15

And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: ‘Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:

Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?

And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.

Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.

But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.

And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.

And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.

Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.

[As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.]

And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences.

And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
***********************************

The book of Enoch clearly shows that the offspring of the Watchers are cursed by Yah to be evil spirits. They are NOT angels but the offspring of angels.

Obviously you haven't read the writings of Enoch. The Jews understood the source of evil spirits and they were NOT fallen angels.

Excuse me, I thought you were referring to the demons when you said "the fallen angels" are in "prison." That is what I believe the demons are---fallen angels. You keep saying that demons are the spirits of dead people, right? The Bible says that "the dead are conscious of nothing at all," (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) and yet you insist they ARE. Why is this?

The person who was worshipped in Babel was Nimrod, not Lucifer. The book The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop might be of interest to you. He traces Nimrod down through the centuries.

How do you know that Baal was "1/4 Nephilim"?

Where do you get this information?

[ttruscott]

Just how are the demons imprisoned? In a literal place? No, because they are said to be involved in the affairs of this world.

I offer:
2 Corinthians 4:4...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. chained by their blindness to spiritual truths, 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, [Strong's G5020 - tartaro� the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews] putting them in chains of darkness (blindness to the truth) to be held for judgment; that is the final banishment to the outer darkness.

Since they have regular access to the earth both by becoming human (Matt 13: 38-39) and by their inhabitation of people, it is obvious that their prison includes the earth, a prison hospital so to speak because there is a rehab centre in it to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

Sorry, but nobody but JW accept that ridiculous nonsense that Sheol is just the grave. Everyone else, even the Jews for thousands of years believe it is the abode of the spirits of the dead.

Paradise is the abode of the righteous dead in Sheol (pre-cross). Tartarus is the prison in the lowest depths of Sheol where all fallen angels are LOCKED UP until Judgment. Satan rules from Sheol. That is his domain.

Demons are ghosts. Principalities are Nephilim ghosts. Satan/Lucifer is a ghost that rules Sheol/Hades/hell.

You are brainwashed by your cult.

Who are YOU brainwashed by? Are those all your ideas? I asked you for scriptures to back up your statements that Sheol is the "abode" of dead people, that Tartarus is a literal prison, and how you can say that the fallen angels (the demons) are literally locked up now. They are obviously very busy in the world! (Ephesians 6:11,12)

The whole of the Earth is the prison for Satan and his angels and his people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil, the tares called goats. Sheol/hades is just the waiting room for the dead, waiting to be resurrected to their fate or waiting to be conceived as human.

Satan rules from Sheol? Do you know how silly that sounds, when he is not in Sheol at all? In fact, you said that "the righteous dead" are in Sheol. Satan rules where the righteous dead are? Please get your scenarios straight and in agreement.

Sheol is the place for both the righteous dead and the wicked dead, Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol ...(Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return. Of course, how do they return to a place they've never been to?

There aren't any dead people ghosts. Dead people "know nothing," there is "no activity in the grave [Sheol]." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The Nephilim are not conscious anywhere. They got taken out with the Flood millennia ago.

Ecc 9:5,10 is the true expression of the way the world thinks in contrast to GOD's truth. And you have bought it I guess. A lack of knowledge seriously undermines all credibility.

Why are the in between verses on Ecc 9:7-9 never mentioned by JWs? 7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Not the stuff of a JW definition of life with your GOD?

[ttruscott]

"It is not in Sheol that can laud you; death cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness. The living, the living, he is the one that can laud you, just as I can this day." (Isaiah 38:18,19)

Yahu says that the righteous go to Sheol. So if they were actually alive, they COULD praise God. But it says there that the dead CANNOT praise God. It is the LIVING that can. Apparently Isaiah thinks that the people in Sheol are really DEAD.

The pit is the lowest part of sheol while paradise was the highest...until it moved out of Sheol. There are many mansions in my Father's house... two places can be contained in one reference.

[ttruscott]

You know another reason why your argument doesn't hold water? What scripture do people use who are trying to prove that a dead person's spirit goes consciously back to God when they die? ECCLESIASTES 12:7. My point is, if Ecclesiastes is screwed up because its writer is "a worldly minded unspiritual person," then why do so many people that believe like you do quote Ecclesiastes 12:7?

The writer of Ecc was not screwed up but wrote the truth about the world that GOD wanted to be written so as to to contrast it to HIS truth. And it takes the Holy Spirit that you deny to find the way between the joints.

[Yahu]

The person who was worshipped in Babel was Nimrod, not Lucifer. The book The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop might be of interest to you. He traces Nimrod down through the centuries.

How do you know that Baal was "1/4 Nephilim"?

Where do you get this information.

Actually your are right. Baal worship was the deification of Nimrod not Lucifer. Granted there were multiple Baalim but plain Baal is Nimrod. Baal-zebub is Lucifer. Nimrod is 1/4 nephilim because Ashtoreth was his mother and Lucifer his uncle. Ashtoreth was 'queen of heaven/sky' as queen mother at Babel. That is where the title comes from. She was only 1/2 angelic. That makes her son by Cush was 1/4 and called a 'mighty man' in scripture.

Now many names are used for Nimrod in scripture. He was called Amraphel after Babel fell. He was still a king but the area of his kingdom was greatly reduced and he was subjugated by one of his former captains. Amraphel means 'fall of the sayer', ie fall of the false prophet. He is also referenced as Tammuz and Orion as well as the anti-christ spirit. He is the leopard over the Greek empire in Daniels dream. Nimrod means 'hunts with leopards'. Then when the Greek empire was divided four ways at Alexander's death, the anti-christ spirit took over the Syrian branch of the empire. The empire was divided to the 'four winds/spirits'. One of the kings of the Syrian quarter sacrificed a pig on the alter to desecrate the temple. That king was under the influence of Nimrod, the anti-christ spirit.

Durning the tribulation, it is the anti-christ spirits turn to rule the next major empire. In that time Lucifer/Molech/Apollo takes a back seat as the 'false prophet' but the fallen angels get let back out and basically all hell breaks loose.

Molech (Lucifer) and Asthoreth were 'living gods' at the time of Babel while Nimrod was the ruler of men.

As to how I know this, well years of study to confirm things I learned during a conflict with the modern-day candidate to be the next worldwide high priestess of Ashtoreth. That high priestess had been personally chosen to become the next worldwide high priestess by the spirit of Ashtoreth and had visited and trained her since she was 14 years old. That priestess bragged to me about her superior knowledge of events contained in bible stories. Her own goddess had confirmed the 7 day creation and Noah's flood as actual truth. To be a high priestess she had to know the truth yet still choose to follow Ashtoreth in opposition to Yah. Only the highest level priestesses where allowed to know the truth in the mystery religions.

Oh, I am familiar with 'The Two Babylons'. Hislop provided a lot of valuable information but he failed to see that there were two primary male deities at Babel and attributed the sungod worship to Nimrod which is incorrect.

Nimrod isn't Lucifer but the anti-christ spirit. Nimrod rules the 2nd heaven, ie realm of the stars/planets/zodiacs/constellations.

Each of them took celestial symbols in the heavens as a representation of them. Lucifer became sungod, his twin sister the moon goddess. Other principalities took constalations like Nimrod is Orion. They try to control individuals fates by the signs in the heavens.

Now the reason they took sun and moon as the primary symbols is because of the passage a passage in Genesis.

Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Sungod worship is all about time-sharing. They take turns ruling over empires, over specific times. Major principalities may be over zodiac signs and rotate who is let out to influence the world. Over all, Lucifer rules the daylight side of the earth while his twin sister rules the night side.

The conflict I had with that high priestess lasted several years. I have studied as much as I could about what I was up against combating a resurrection of that ancient pagan worship for the last 25 years. And I found all kinds of confirmation in scripture BUT it goes against most commonly held doctrines. Now who could be behind all those false doctrines?

[Yahu]

The Bible says that "the dead are conscious of nothing at all," (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) and yet you insist they ARE. Why is this?

Because that is a reference to the dead body. The spirit and soul are no longer tied to the body.

[Yahu]

The whole of the Earth is the prison for Satan and his angels and his people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil, the tares called goats. Sheol/hades is just the waiting room for the dead, waiting to be resurrected to their fate or waiting to be conceived as human.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Satan isn't in prison. He is not one of the fallen angels. He rules over the realm of Sheol.

Isa 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.
4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?
6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?
7 Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice.
8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it.
9 And thou wentest to the king (Molech) with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

The above passage is about the Baalim worship outside of Jerusalem with the grove above and the valley of Hinnom below where the children were sacrificed. Verse 9 has a mistranslation in many versions of the bible. King and Molech are spelled the same in Hebrew. Molech means 'shameful king' with the later added vowel pointing to distinguish when it is the pagan deity known as 'king'.

This is the same shameful king of Isa 14, ie Lucifer.

Verse 9 is about performing ritual witchcraft by offering sacrifices to Molech which is equated as 'debasing thyself even to Sheol'. Obviously not all spirits are confined to Sheol. Some are let out to perform actions.

This can be seen in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man asks to be let out to go see his brothers and warn them. He is denied the request but apparently it is possible for a spirit to be let out. Those that have authority within Sheol can allow spirits out to perform actions. Much of those actions are to serve those that worship them via sending spirits to perform the actions of witchcrafts.

[Clownboat]

Now who could be behind all those false doctrines?

Who? Perhaps you are assigning agency a bit to quickly?

When you ask about a 'who', I can't help but realize that an 'imagination' would account for all these claims and we must admit, we know that imaginations are real, meanwhile these mythological angels, demons and gods, not so much.

What makes a modern day priestesses claims believable anyways? Doesn't all the angels and demon claims scream fairy tale to you? If not, why not?