Many give a "yes" answer in some form, whether or not they believe in God.
Are they right or are they wrong? What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?
And what is a "soul"?
Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal beings?
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Checkpoint
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Post #2
There seem to be some pretty straight-forward answers to this in Genesis Chapter 2.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It appears here that to simply become a breathing conscious being constitutes becoming a "living soul".
As we read further it appears that for a living soul to become immortal like the Gods the living soul would need to eat from the magical tree of life.
We can't forget that the Biblical story is very much a magical tale. Adam and Eve didn't have a knowledge of good and evil until they had eaten the fruit from the magical tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Apparently they hadn't already eaten from the tree of life which there had previously been permission to eat from.
That's too bad. Since they hadn't yet eaten the fruit from the magical tree of life, God was able to kick them out of the Garden of Eden and prevent them from doing so.
Therefore at this point we have humans who DO NOT have immortal souls. In fact, the wages of sin is "death" at this point in the fairytale.
And this was basically the way it was the whole way through the Old Testament. The wages of sin was simply death. And apparently if someone was a complete saint and never sinned at all perhaps God would allow them access to the magical tree of life? It never even really promises this.
The fairytale seem to become fixed and obsessed with death being the wages of sin, and doesn't really say much at all about how to avoid death, other than to possibly atone accumulated sins via brunt sacrifices in an effort to appease God and perhaps make a plea that the person might be permitted to eat from the magical tree of life that Adam and Eve had been driven away from.
We don't really see promises of eternal life until the birth of Christianity and the claim that Jesus is the Son of Yahweh who is making this offer of eternal life.
But then, in Christianity, Jesus appears to also suggest that the soul will survive death and suffer some form of "everlasting punishment" rather than just dying.
Jesus actually using the phrase, "everlasting punishment" which hardly sounds like a simple death.
But in addition to that he also speaks about a "worm" that dieth not.
Mark 9:
[42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
What in the world is he talking about here?
What does he mean when he says, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
It appears that this, along with other places where Jesus suggested "everlasting punishment", are the origins for a belief in a fiery hell.
A person can hardly be cast into an everlasting place of punishment if they aren't themselves immortal, or have some sort of immoral "soul" or "worm".
Is a soul and a worm the same thing here?
All I can say is that I"m glad that I no longer believe in this religion because it can get pretty ugly.
And let's not forget that Jesus claims to speak the TRUTH, and Jesus himself is attributed to saying that only FEW will enter into the kingdom of heaven. That leaves the vast majority of humans to surfer eternally in a hell fire as frying worms I guess.
Not a very optimistic religion if you ask me.
The original "Wages of sin is death" was far more rational.
So I guess it comes entirely from Jesus, this idea that everyone has an eternal soul that will either go to heaven or hell. It's an idea that belongs mainly to Christianity. Although Islam accepts Jesus as a "prophet" too, so they accept this heaven and hell idea too.
I don't believe the Jews consider this at all, because the original religion didn't have anything in it about a heaven or a hell. All it had was a magical tree of life that supposedly existed in a Garden of Eden and so there could be some hope that someone might be able to sweet-talk God into letting them eat from it. Other than that we just die. The wages of sin is death, not being eternally fried as a worm that can't die like Jesus preached.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It appears here that to simply become a breathing conscious being constitutes becoming a "living soul".
As we read further it appears that for a living soul to become immortal like the Gods the living soul would need to eat from the magical tree of life.
We can't forget that the Biblical story is very much a magical tale. Adam and Eve didn't have a knowledge of good and evil until they had eaten the fruit from the magical tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Apparently they hadn't already eaten from the tree of life which there had previously been permission to eat from.
That's too bad. Since they hadn't yet eaten the fruit from the magical tree of life, God was able to kick them out of the Garden of Eden and prevent them from doing so.
Therefore at this point we have humans who DO NOT have immortal souls. In fact, the wages of sin is "death" at this point in the fairytale.
And this was basically the way it was the whole way through the Old Testament. The wages of sin was simply death. And apparently if someone was a complete saint and never sinned at all perhaps God would allow them access to the magical tree of life? It never even really promises this.
The fairytale seem to become fixed and obsessed with death being the wages of sin, and doesn't really say much at all about how to avoid death, other than to possibly atone accumulated sins via brunt sacrifices in an effort to appease God and perhaps make a plea that the person might be permitted to eat from the magical tree of life that Adam and Eve had been driven away from.
We don't really see promises of eternal life until the birth of Christianity and the claim that Jesus is the Son of Yahweh who is making this offer of eternal life.
But then, in Christianity, Jesus appears to also suggest that the soul will survive death and suffer some form of "everlasting punishment" rather than just dying.
Jesus actually using the phrase, "everlasting punishment" which hardly sounds like a simple death.
But in addition to that he also speaks about a "worm" that dieth not.
Mark 9:
[42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
What in the world is he talking about here?
What does he mean when he says, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
It appears that this, along with other places where Jesus suggested "everlasting punishment", are the origins for a belief in a fiery hell.
A person can hardly be cast into an everlasting place of punishment if they aren't themselves immortal, or have some sort of immoral "soul" or "worm".
Is a soul and a worm the same thing here?
All I can say is that I"m glad that I no longer believe in this religion because it can get pretty ugly.
And let's not forget that Jesus claims to speak the TRUTH, and Jesus himself is attributed to saying that only FEW will enter into the kingdom of heaven. That leaves the vast majority of humans to surfer eternally in a hell fire as frying worms I guess.
Not a very optimistic religion if you ask me.
The original "Wages of sin is death" was far more rational.
So I guess it comes entirely from Jesus, this idea that everyone has an eternal soul that will either go to heaven or hell. It's an idea that belongs mainly to Christianity. Although Islam accepts Jesus as a "prophet" too, so they accept this heaven and hell idea too.
I don't believe the Jews consider this at all, because the original religion didn't have anything in it about a heaven or a hell. All it had was a magical tree of life that supposedly existed in a Garden of Eden and so there could be some hope that someone might be able to sweet-talk God into letting them eat from it. Other than that we just die. The wages of sin is death, not being eternally fried as a worm that can't die like Jesus preached.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #3In scripture the word soul (Heb "nephesh") is quite simply another word for a living breathing being (animal or human). It is never associated with immortality. It is not an invisible part of a human that "escapes" at death.Checkpoint wrote:What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?
And what is a "soul"?
soul = a person. (no more, no less. Simple)
Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... is-a-soul/
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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onewithhim
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]
Excellent post!!
If the scriptures are read closely, it can be readily ascertained that God MADE man a living soul, he didn't GIVE man a soul. (Genesis 2:7) It can be seen that animals are ALSO souls. In Genesis God created animals that swam in the oceans and referred to them with the Hebrew word (as brought out above) nephesh...the same word used to describe man as a soul. This was also the case with other animals.
People confuse "nephesh" with spirit. "Soul" and "spirit" are thought to be interchangeable terms to many people. This is not the case. "Spirit" is translated from the Hebrew word ruach. The soul (nephesh) is the creature itself. The spirit (ruach) generally refers to the life-force of the living creature or soul.
Excellent post!!
If the scriptures are read closely, it can be readily ascertained that God MADE man a living soul, he didn't GIVE man a soul. (Genesis 2:7) It can be seen that animals are ALSO souls. In Genesis God created animals that swam in the oceans and referred to them with the Hebrew word (as brought out above) nephesh...the same word used to describe man as a soul. This was also the case with other animals.
People confuse "nephesh" with spirit. "Soul" and "spirit" are thought to be interchangeable terms to many people. This is not the case. "Spirit" is translated from the Hebrew word ruach. The soul (nephesh) is the creature itself. The spirit (ruach) generally refers to the life-force of the living creature or soul.
Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #5The soul is a person without their flesh. The soul has been shown to have mass. (relative weight). The Bible scripture includes these words from Jesus about the soul.Checkpoint wrote: Many give a "yes" answer in some form, whether or not they believe in God.
Are they right or are they wrong? What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?
And what is a "soul"?
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #6YahDough wrote:The soul is a person without their flesh. The soul has been shown to have mass. (relative weight). The Bible scripture includes these words from Jesus about the soul.Checkpoint wrote: Many give a "yes" answer in some form, whether or not they believe in God.
Are they right or are they wrong? What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?
And what is a "soul"?
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So at the very least we can say from the above the soul is NOT immortal (immortal in scripture mean indestructable, that which cannot come to an end). And that "hell" is NOT a place were souls are tortured indefinitely (since they are destroyed) ie cease to exist.
Or are you suggesting that when God destroys something it keeps living?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Checkpoint
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #7[Replying to post 5 by YahDough]
Present or future, or both?
Is the "person without their flesh" alive or dead? Immortal or mortal?The soul is a person without their flesh. The soul has been shown to have mass. (relative weight).
Present or future, or both?
Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #8Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 5 by YahDough]
The soul is a person without their flesh (body). The soul has been shown to have mass. (relative weight).
Is the "person without their flesh" alive or dead?
The soul is alive unless it was destroyed by God.
The soul is mortal just like the body.Immortal or mortal?
God gives people a chance to repent and redeem their soul through the blood of Christ Jesus so I say future. But Paul quotes the LORD as saying:Present or future, or both?
2Cor:6:2: (For He saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
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Checkpoint
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #9[Replying to post 8 by YahDough]
Genesis tells us a soul is a person, yes.
However, it says that soul has a body to live in and a spirit to animate it.
To put it another way, we are a soul, we have a spirit[breath of life], and we live in a body.
That is what Genesis 2:7 says. And as you say, we are mortal, which means we die.
God explained what that meant, in Genesis 3:19:
"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust and to dust you shall return".
So, you and I are dust who have the spirit of life to keep us alive.
Scripture further describes what happens when we die, in Ecclesiastes 12:7:
"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it".
The soul is a person without their flesh (body).
Genesis tells us a soul is a person, yes.
However, it says that soul has a body to live in and a spirit to animate it.
To put it another way, we are a soul, we have a spirit[breath of life], and we live in a body.
That is what Genesis 2:7 says. And as you say, we are mortal, which means we die.
God explained what that meant, in Genesis 3:19:
"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust and to dust you shall return".
So, you and I are dust who have the spirit of life to keep us alive.
Scripture further describes what happens when we die, in Ecclesiastes 12:7:
"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it".
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onewithhim
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Re: Do all people have an immortal soul? Are we eternal bein
Post #10No, the soul is the whole person. In the Bible the soul is spoken of as having blood in its veins and eating food. It can also be dead.YahDough wrote:The soul is a person without their flesh. The soul has been shown to have mass. (relative weight). The Bible scripture includes these words from Jesus about the soul.Checkpoint wrote: Many give a "yes" answer in some form, whether or not they believe in God.
Are they right or are they wrong? What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?
And what is a "soul"?
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But I think Jesus was drawing a distinction between soul & body in the above verse just to say that men can destroy a person's body quite easily and have been doing so for millennia. But the person's SOUL is something more.....it is the person's body AND all his other qualities and attributes, his thoughts, his personality, etc., etc. All these things men cannot destroy because God Almighty will remember all about a person and when the person is resurrected, he will be the same person he was, with the same personality, viewpoints, etc. Jehovah is the only one who can destroy the soul---the complete person---by not giving him eternal life.
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