Prove the claim..

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

OR demonstrate in some other reasonable way that "Jesus is God".

If you cannot do this, then why do so many Christians persist in claiming others are hell-bound for NOT believing that "Jesus is God"?

[JehovahsWitness]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

I'm asking those who make absolute claims to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

You and I are not likely to agree on Biblical inerrancy, so let's move on to what we agree on, that Jesus is not God. So I'm guessing you agree that the Bible never claims that he IS God.

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

[Divine Insight]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Shouldn't you need to prove this too if you are going to make the following claim?

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

Why should anyone believe that YHVH is God if the Bible can't be shown to be inerrant?

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Shouldn't you need to prove this too if you are going to make the following claim?

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

Why should anyone believe that YHVH is God if the Bible can't be shown to be inerrant?

At least the Bible clearly states that YHVH is God, it never makes the claim that "Jesus is God" with the same clarity.

Perhaps I should not have linked the two challenges, as they are in effect, two different but not unrelated issues.

[JehovahsWitness]

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

No I don't know for sure.

Maybe they think that the bible did originally say "Jesus is God" and that and those bits got corrupted out of it, just as you believe that lots of bad bits in the bible got corrupted in. Maybe they think Paul took it out (how do you feel about Paul, do you think such a thing was below him?) Or maybe John (I take it you cannot trust John because he said some things that I presume are distasteful to you), maybe they believe John took out out the bit that says " and Jesus called the Apostles together and said I am YAHWEH and you must pray to me"

Surely you are not condemning people for believing the bible is unreliable and has been corrupted ... corruption works both ways: verses in there that shouldn't be there AND verses that were in there that got taken out.

So I don't know why they believe what they do, but it could have something to do with their believing that the bible has errors, omissions, spurious addtions and is basically corrupted literature.

JW

[Elijah John]

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

No I don't know for sure.

Maybe they think that the bible did originally say "Jesus is God" and that and those bits got corrupted out of it, just as you believe that lots of bad bits in the bible got corrupted in. Maybe they think Paul took it out (how do you feel about Paul, do you think such a thing was below him? Or maybe John (I take it you cannot trust John because he said some things that I presume are distasteful to you, maybe they believe John took out out the bit that says " and Jesus called the Apostles together and said I am YAHWEH and you must pray to me"

Surely you are not condemning people for believing the bible is unreliable and has been corrupted ...

JW

Bible literalists are usually the one's who claim that we have the Bible intact, and are also the ones who claim that Jesus is God.

Jehovah's Witnessesses and Christadelphians are exceptions to this, as they are literalists, but not Jesus-is-God claimants.

Seems Jesus-worshipers base theirs conclusion on what their Pastors preach, or the Creeds of the Trinitarian Churches and not on what the Bible actually teaches.

Paul and John have much higher Christologies than I do, but even they do not go as far as modern Trinitarians do.

With the exception of the pre-existing Jesus being Michael the Archangel, I think the JW's have a more accurate interpretation of Scripture. (not to say I accept Scripture in it's entirety) I say this as one who loves YHVH too, but as an outside observer. We differ on the infalliblility of the Bible, and the theologies of John and Paul.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

Yes but there are probably at least some people that believe that the message that Jesus is YHWH was in the original bible but got taken out. Possibly by Paul or John.

Are you going to say that such a thing is impossible? What if Jesus did call the disciples together and say "I am YAHWEH the Almighty, please make sure the world knows this" but those verses got taken out. What is the logic that says bad bits can get put in the bible but good bits can't be taken out (its much easier to remove something from a book than write a bit and put it in).

Are you going to claim that couldn't have happened? If so, that's an extraordinary claim - prove it


JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

Yes but there are probably at least some people that believe that the message that Jesus is YHWH was in the original bible but got taken out. Possibly by Paul or John.

Are you going to say that such a thing is impossible? What if Jesus did call the disciples together and say "I am YAHWEH the Almighty, please make sure the world knows this" but those verses got taken out. What is the logic that says bad bits can get put in the bible but good bits can't be taken out (its much easier to remove something from a book than write a bit and put it in).

Are you going to claim that couldn't have happened? If so, that's an extraordinary claim - prove it


JW

If such were the case, no doubt Jesus-worshiping believers would have found such passages by now, to bolster their claims.

But instead, they read into things in the Bible that just are not there.

I know what you're trying to do here,but it's not an "all or nothing" propositon. Else, you would have to defend and justify every absurd and atrocious portion contained in in the Bible.

Do you handle snakes? Or drink poison?

Do you believe that Sabbath breakers should be stoned to death?

Do you keep and beat slaves? Or believe that YHVH God EVER said that fellow human beings made in HIS image are "property"?

Non-literalists do not have to embrace that burden. You literalists do.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Perhaps I should not have linked the two challenges, as they are in effect, two different but not unrelated issues.

The first challenge appears to me to be unsuitable for this particular subforum, from my reading of the guidelines.