Isn't the Book of Revelation just a fable and not literal?

[polonius]

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/0

Introduction to Revelation – New American Bible Revised Edition

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

No, just knowledge gleaned from reading the entire Bible. There are many references to anointed co-rulers in other places in the Scriptures, as well as how we can tell that the final sealing is just before Armageddon.

As I said earlier, the context of what we are discussing is the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is a harbinger of the coming wrath of God and asks and answers the key question, "who shall be able to stand"?

Those who do stand are all those of chapter 7, because they are sealed by the living God, having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you not sealed?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

No, just knowledge gleaned from reading the entire Bible. There are many references to anointed co-rulers in other places in the Scriptures, as well as how we can tell that the final sealing is just before Armageddon.

As I said earlier, the context of what we are discussing is the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is a harbinger of the coming wrath of God and asks and answers the key question, "who shall be able to stand"?

Those who do stand are all those of chapter 7, because they are sealed by the living God, having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you not sealed?

"Sealing" is in reference to those relatively few who will reign with Christ. Those of us who will live on the earth are not sealed. That is just something between Jehovah and the 144,000. It doesn't mean any kind of onus for the rest of us. The anointed ones might receive a white stone. If the rest of us won't get a white stone, so what? Are we being deprived? Not at all. We get life forever on Earth.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

No, just knowledge gleaned from reading the entire Bible. There are many references to anointed co-rulers in other places in the Scriptures, as well as how we can tell that the final sealing is just before Armageddon.

As I said earlier, the context of what we are discussing is the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is a harbinger of the coming wrath of God and asks and answers the key question, "who shall be able to stand"?

Those who do stand are all those of chapter 7, because they are sealed by the living God, having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you not sealed?

"Sealing" is in reference to those relatively few who will reign with Christ. Those of us who will live on the earth are not sealed. That is just something between Jehovah and the 144,000. It doesn't mean any kind of onus for the rest of us. The anointed ones might receive a white stone. If the rest of us won't get a white stone, so what? Are we being deprived? Not at all. We get life forever on Earth.

You say these things with confidence, but without evidence from our passage.

All believers have the seal of the living God, which is the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30.

[marco]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

What is a "silly" number as opposed to a sensible one? What is the criteria? What renders a number "silly" or not?

I think the silliness is in its implied specificity. "As I was going down the street I noticed 17,639 people waiting for a bus." Silly.
"As I was walking down the street I saw 3 people waiting for a bus." OK.

Before bison were slaughtered it is said that it took several days for a herd to pass by. If someone said they saw 144,000 bison charging past, we would smile.

I hope this helps.

There's no need to tell me about square numbers or barbarian tribes, by the way.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 119 by marco]

What is a "silly" number as opposed to a sensible one? What is the criteria? What renders a number "silly" or not?

I think the silliness is in its implied specificity. "As I was going down the street I noticed 17,639 people waiting for a bus." Silly.
"As I was walking down the street I saw 3 people waiting for a bus." OK.

So would it be fair to say, it's not the number itself (ie 8 is silly because its looks or squiggly and is less than ten but 11 is not silly because its made of straight lines and is not an even number) but rather the "silliness" is rather an assessment of the circumstances surrounding its use? In other words in analysing what precision was possible or needed, what numbers would, given the circumstances, be reasonably expected and any number of other factors?

For example, an engineer calculating the maximum weight a bridge could bear or a pilate calculating the course he will fly the plane, would be expected to deal with numbers, even fractions to a high degree of precision since lives would be involved and they would have the instruments at their disposal to be so precise, but a little old lady waiting for the bus stating that 17,639 people were in the queue with her stretches credibility both because such a large number of people are not normally seen waiting at a single bus stop and we can question her means of knowing the number to that degree of precision.

To deem that the number 144,000 is "silly" would it not therefore depend on a similar analysis: who provided the number? would that individual or entity have the means to state it with such precisioin? what does the number relates to? Does it reasonably refect contextual expectations? Would the application of this number be contradictory to the stated purpose of the calculation? And any other number of factors.

Would you agree?

[marco]

So would it be fair to say, it's not the number itself (ie 8 is silly because its looks or squiggly and is less than ten but 11 is not silly because its made of straight lines and is not an even number) but rather the "silliness" is rather an assessment of the circumstances surrounding its use?

You might be interested in the literary terms, transferred epithet or hypallage. The prisoner lay on his sleepless bed is an example.

To deem that the number 144,000 is "silly" would it not therefore depend on a similar analysis: who provided the number?

It suffices to quote:

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

This is very similar to, or sillier than, your observant old lady counting thousands at a bus stop. He "looked" and he saw "144,000". Precision here is silly not to mention the crayoned foreheads. But belief conquers silliness.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 126 by marco]

You have the intellect and at the risk of appearing immodest so do I , I believe we both know the point I was was making and whether your response was worthy of it.

I wish you good day,

JW

[marco]

[Replying to post 126 by marco]

You have the intellect and at the risk of appearing immodest so do I , I believe we both know the point I was was making and whether your response was worthy of it.

I wish you good day,

I am pleased to have your confirmation, JW. I was steering our responses in the direction of the OP, and so discussion of what constitutes "silliness" is most relevant. But I suppose silliness, like beauty, depends on who is observing it, as you almost said. And I am ever aware that our humble attempts to be clever dash themselves, as folly, against the divine. My warm regards.

[ttruscott]

A metaphor is not a fable...

Like a rolling stone is used to describe a person bouncing from lover to lover or from one political stance to another, it does NOT fit as a fable...it is a metaphor.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 114 by onewithhim]

Verses 1-3 speaks of the anointed co-rulers of Jesus, and their final sealing (which would occur just before Armageddon).

They are not called "anointed co-rulers" in the passage; in fact this term is not found anywhere in scripture.

"final sealing" ("just before Armageddon")?

Again, absent from the passage; human ideas added into it.

No, just knowledge gleaned from reading the entire Bible. There are many references to anointed co-rulers in other places in the Scriptures, as well as how we can tell that the final sealing is just before Armageddon.

As I said earlier, the context of what we are discussing is the sixth seal.

The sixth seal is a harbinger of the coming wrath of God and asks and answers the key question, "who shall be able to stand"?

Those who do stand are all those of chapter 7, because they are sealed by the living God, having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you not sealed?

"Sealing" is in reference to those relatively few who will reign with Christ. Those of us who will live on the earth are not sealed. That is just something between Jehovah and the 144,000. It doesn't mean any kind of onus for the rest of us. The anointed ones might receive a white stone. If the rest of us won't get a white stone, so what? Are we being deprived? Not at all. We get life forever on Earth.

You say these things with confidence, but without evidence from our passage.

All believers have the seal of the living God, which is the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30.

We have to take into consideration many other indications in the Scriptures, and not just the one particular Scripture alone. It has to harmonize with the whole Bible.

All believers do not have the sealing into the new covenant that Jesus made with his faithful Apostles at his last meal. They were to reign with him, as he had told them previously. They would "sit on twelve thrones." (Matt. 19:28) If we are to take just that verse and exclude all others, we would have to believe that only 12 persons would be ruling with him in heaven. But we know there will be many more, by considering many other passages. We can discern that, indeed, there will be 12 X 12,000 apparently, that will rule with him. Why should we be concerned that we who will enjoy paradise Earth forever aren't "sealed" into the New Covenant that Jesus made with his co-rulers? That just means that they will reign in heaven with him.

I'm perfectly happy to let them rule, while I enjoy a beautifully physical life here on Earth with my dream home, pet lions, sparkling water falls and pools, and relatives of mine all the way to Adam who will be resurrected back to the earth.