The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[JP Cusick]

You defined the fate of all mankind as being forced into everlasting life.

That takes away the freedom to choose.

There is no such thing as a "freedom" to choose = that is an illusion.

There are limited choices in this life as like choose chocolate or vanilla but it is very limited indeed.

An example that seems to be so explicit is this:
In the old west a criminal was given the choice of execution of whether they be hanged or shot, and so on the day of the hanging the officials would tell the audience that the prisoner chose to be hanged, and so the people felt better as they watched. PICTURE

It just makes people feel better when they have a choice - even when their choices are just an illusion.

... making respect for God a prerequisite for gaining everlasting life?

You know, like the Bible states.

Respect for God is not a prerequisite for salvation or everlasting life.

There is no prerequisite for salvation or everlasting life.

In fact the exact opposite is the truth - that there is nothing required at all.

Jesus paid the price in full completely for all of humanity.

This is the standard that God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48

And it means ENEMIES, in that wilful sinners and horrible evil people get full forgiveness and reconciliation. See Romans 5:7-10

[myth-one.com]

You defined the fate of all mankind as being forced into everlasting life.

That takes away the freedom to choose.

There is no such thing as a "freedom" to choose = that is an illusion.

Then God must have got it wrong when He commanded us to choose:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Respect for God is not a prerequisite for salvation or everlasting life.

There is no prerequisite for salvation or everlasting life.

In fact the exact opposite is the truth - that there is nothing required at all.

Jesus paid the price in full completely for all of humanity.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Only believers are said to gain everlasting life.

Are you claiming that there are no nonbelievers?

Under the New Testament, believing is a prerequisite for salvation. Believing implies respect!

Jesus' sacrifice is offered to all humanity. But it will save only that part of humanity who believes in Him as their Savior. That is man's part of the contract.

[ttruscott]

The original angels were created directly as everlasting spirits -- and that did not totally work out, as a third rebelled.

Why is your claim that the Satanic rebellion was a failure of HIS creation any better than my claim the Satanic fall fulfilled HIS purpose for creation which was to find all who wanted HIM as their GOD and HIS heaven out of those who did not want that so extremely they would make sure they never had to share heaven with HIM?

HE created us to choose yea or nay. We chose. What failed to work out?

[polonius]

[quote="myth-one.com"]

[*]The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.[/b]
[/list]Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

RESPONSE: So no Jews or Moslems will be in heaven you believe?

[myth-one.com]

- I disagree that spirits are "indestructable" or immortal

God is a Spirit:

So God can be destroyed or killed?

# the end of life, the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions. Death is the absence of life.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -the-dead/

- I agree in your definition of death

- I disagree that the "second death" doesn't fall under exactly the same definition.

One, and only one, death exists under that definition. And that is the second death, as it is everlasting.

Our first "death" is not a death under that definition as it is not permanent. Thus it is referred to as sleep, slumber, or rest in the Bible. If a person "comes back from" death a dozen times, then he was never truly dead by the above definition.

- I totally disagree; some humans will not be resurreced and not all humans will have to die.

Correct, there is no reason to resurrect the living Christians. They will changed and never "sleep" in any grave. Thus, there is no cause to resurrect them.

- I disagree that ALL non-believers will be resurrected (see above)

Correct, resurrection only applies to nonbelievers who are dead. Perhaps I need to clarify that somewhat. Thanks.

#5 All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air

- I agree that spirit anointed Christians alive during Christ's coming will be taken to heaven at that time

None will be taken to heaven. Jesus is coming back to rule the earth and we will rule with him.

- i disagree that ALL Christians will face this eventuality

All Christians do not face this eventuality -- only the small percentage which are alive at the Second Coming!

- I disagree that there will be no living human Christian after Christ's second coming

All of the Christian humans alive at the Second Coming will be changed in an instant into everlasting spiritual bodied beings, equal unto the angels. All dead human Christians will be resurrected also as everlasting spiritual bodied beings at that time. That accounts for all human Christians.

Please identify this "living Christian" human on the earth after those events.

#8, 9, 10 Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment.

- I agree that there will be a judgement of resurrected non-believers. I would say however there will be a judgement of all that are alive during the millennium.

Good point!

All dead nonbelievers will be resurrected at that time, and all nonbelievers (those resurrected and those living at the time) will face judgment!

I need to make that more clear -- Thanks.

- I would agree that the eternal future of those (all humans living during that time) will depend on what they do during this "judgement process" but ...

- that "judgement process" is in fact t1000 years long. Judement days = millenium= 1000 year reign.

Not sure what you're saying here. Who cares how long the judgment lasts? There is no rush of time.

If you are claiming that Judgment is during the Millennium -- that is incorrect. It begins after the Millennium because that is when the resurrection of deceased nonbelievers occurs. They cannot face judgment if they are dead.

[JehovahsWitness]

- I disagree that spirits are "indestructable" or immortal

God is a Spirit:

So God can be destroyed or killed?

To reason that that which applies to one must be extrapolated to all is faulty reasoning.

To illustrate My car is green, thus ALL cars must be green. If your car is green all this proves is cars CAN be green. To establish that all cars are green more is needed.

If God is a spirit and God is immortal then this proves that spirits CAN be immortal, we need to look to scripture to establish if ALL spirits are immortal. Did you read the link? There are over forty scriptures in that link, what do you think of the reasoning and scrptures therein?


LINK
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

[JehovahsWitness]

# the end of life, the total and [permanent] cessation of all vital functions. Death is the absence of life.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -the-dead/

- I agree in your definition of death

- I disagree that the "second death" doesn't fall under exactly the same definition.

I was refering to the second sentence (in red). You are right that the second death is permenant and that all other deaths are temporary. However since Jesus referred to Lazarus as being dead (which would prove to be temporary) and the bible speaks of countless other faithful individuals as being "dead" we must conclude that the use of "sleep" is a metaphore for the temporary nature of the eventuality for certain. In short, unless we are going to contradiction Jesus , it is incorrect to say we cannot refer to temporary cessesion of the life as technically being "dead" ego the definition of "death" does not include the notion of permanence.

To illustrate: Is a doctor defined as "a person that cares for the sick" or is a doctora person that permanently cares for the sick"? Is a temporary doctor not still a doctor? If a doctor retires was he not while practising a doctor? Does the definition not apply in exactly the same way? The only distinction is how long that definition applies.

To put inject "permanent" in the defintion of "death" is arbitary and unsupported in scripture. Did you read the link or do you think you have nothing more to learn on these topics?

LINK
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002669
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/120 ... 128-10:526

[JehovahsWitness]

- I totally disagree; some humans will not be resurreced and not all humans will have to die.

Correct, there is no reason to resurrect the living Christians. They will changed and never "sleep" in any grave. Thus, there is no cause to resurrect them.

True, those Christians that never die will not need to be resurrected; however I meant that not all humans that die will be resurrected. The bible indicates that certain humans presently dead are spoken metaphorically as being in "gehenna" which is condemened to everlasting death. Also the bible speaks of a time (symbolically referred to in Revelation as Armageddon) when God will destroy all the wicked, leaving the righteous alive to survive this event.

QUESTION: Does the bible indicate that certain individuals who die for the first time will never be resurrected?

MATTHEW 23:33
O serpents, O vipers' brood, how are you to escape condemnation to Gehenna?

QUESTION: Does the bible indicate that the wicked, killed by God for the first time, when Jesus returns will subsequently be resurrected by God to live again?

Matt. 25:46: “These [who refused to do good to Christ’s “brothers�] will depart into everlasting cutting-off.�

2 Thess. 1:8, 9: “Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus . . . will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.�

Ps. 37:34: “Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, and he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see it.�

Rev. 7: 10, 14: “I saw, and, look! a great crowd, [...]. ‘These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.’�

QUESTION FOR REFLECTION: If Adam and Eve, judged and condemned to death were to be resurrected, why is God not recorded as mentioning that their punishment would be temporary and that they would indeed live again?


QUESTON FOR REFLECTION: What would be the point of resurrecting those that God has allreaded judged as being incorrrigibly wicked worthy to permanent death?



LINK
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/2013888/0/0

Further reading: The first resurrection
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007006

[JehovahsWitness]

#5 All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air

None will be taken to heaven. Jesus is coming back to rule the earth and we will rule with him.

Who will you rule over?

Please identify this "living Christian" human on the earth after those events.

See question above.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you are claiming that Judgment is during the Millennium -- that is incorrect. It begins after the Millennium because that is when the resurrection of deceased nonbelievers occurs. They cannot face judgment if they are dead.

Did you read the links provided?

In what sense do they not “come to life” until the end of the thousand years? This does not mean their resurrection. This ‘coming to life’ involves much more than merely existing as humans. It means attaining to human perfection, free from all effects of Adamic sin. Notice that the reference to this in verse 5 occurs immediately after the preceding verse says that those who will be in heaven “came to life.” In their case it means life free from all effects of sin; they are even specially favored with immortality. (1 Cor. 15:54) For “the rest of the dead,” then, it must mean the fullness of life in human perfection

Source : https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989262#h=35

Judgement day
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012645

Earthly resurrection
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003709#h=29