Bad Theology and Salvation

[liamconnor]

this thread was provoked by Elijah JOhn's stimulating question on why the Trinity was not a focus of Jesus' (and I add, any of the N.T. authors) if it is so important.

I commented there that the N.T. authors did not think salvation came through belief in the Trinity.

But this raises a question which deserves its own thread.


Suppose a person believes that Jesus' death atones for sins; that Jesus is God's chosen King/Messiah/Christ of the world. But...

This person does NOT believe that he is God (i.e. denies Trinity) though Jesus actually IS God (reality has it that God is Triune)

(or)

The person DOES believe God is Triune; but God in fact is NOT triune (Jesus is not God).


Can either person be "saved"?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

I have no problem using the Bible as the source of authoritative scriptures. In fact, if we're going to discuss or debate this "theology" then this is precisely what we need to do. Where else would we get any claims about this religion that have any "authority"?

Also consider the following:

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

I'm not questioning the "authority" of the scriptures, nor am I asking anyone to prove that they are true.

To the contrary I accept both of these "claims". I accept that the Bible is the authoritative scriptures of Christianity, and that we are to assume that the claims made in the Bible are indeed "true".

I then show that when we accept both of these things this leads to contradictions.

Therefore, I conclude that the Bible cannot be "true" because it leads to contradictions.

This is not unlike in mathematics where we assume that it's "true" that there can be a rational solution to the square root of 2, only to discover that after accepting this as being "true" we soon discover that it leads to a contradiction, and therefore our original assumption that it was true must be wrong.

In theology you can't just accept that the Bible is "true" no matter what. That wouldn't be "theology". Instead that would just be blind faith in a religion where contradictions and other problems are simply ignored in favor of keeping "blind faith" in the religion.

That's not an academic study of "Theology".

They might behave that way in a religious seminary where they kick out those who have come to realize the theology cannot be true. But kicking out everyone who recognizes problems with a theology is not a rational approach to a serious consideration of theology as an academic subject.

I approach this from an academic perspective, not from a perspective of "Blind Faith Bible Study" where we refuse to ever consider that there might actually be some serious problems with this religion.

This is why I ask if this forum about the study of "Theology". Or is this just a "Bible Study" forum where anyone who sees a problem with the religion is kicked out?

[Left Site]

Obviously we could continue on with even more scenarios, for example people who actually believe in other Gods from other religions and who also happen to be righteous people. Would they be "saved" because they are righteous as Jesus taught? Or would they be condemned simply because they didn't believe in Jesus and Yahweh?

In other words, is Christianity a religion that offers salvation due to "belief"? Or is it a religion that offers salvation to the righteous as Jesus taught?

It is about morality? Or is it about beliefs?

This goes into far more depth than the OP, but it's basically the same topic because the OP is asking what "Beliefs" are required for salvation. I just take it a step further and ask what happened to morality in this religion?

There are those that we by means of our incomplete perception might call, “good people� Perhaps even we think of our self in that way, as a “good person�, and yet we know that we personally are skeptical or even all together do not believe in God. A complaint which we often hear voiced among men, is, “How could God not grant me (or, them) to live forever? What have I (or, they) done wrong?�

I find that the situation in this world is, and has been, similar to Jesus' days on earth, in that there were many different religious clicks, many of which sought to influence Jesus to join their particular group. But did he join any of them? Some claim that he did, but the truth is that he did not. Jesus' religion was summed up in the saying, “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work.� John 4:34

Organizations by the world's standards do not identify a particular people as, “the people of God.� This is clear from Jesus' words at John 15:19 “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.�

Still, according to 1 Corinthians 14:33, God is very well organized and knows how make transitions as peaceful as they might possibly be made. We then should expect that Jesus would be a good organizer. And the congregation of God which he built up and out of which is making a living breathing temple to his God and Father is kept organized by means of God's holy spirit.

It is one thing for an organization by this world's standards to call itself an organization but quite another thing for a congregation of people to be able to call their collective selves an organization by God's standards. When we look at an organization such as that of Jehovah's Witnesses our first tendency is to judge it by this world's standards. But so long as you remain on the outside you will remain unable to see it's true organization but for a mere glimpse of it's outward accomplishments and cannot be sure of the source of those accomplishments. Yet, if this is indeed an organization built of Christ unto God by the power of God's spirit, surely then you would want to be able to know it. But that is not necessarily so easy, for to know it you would have to enter it and to enter it involves far more than just claiming membership. What does it involve? Let me try to illustrate what it involves:

Let us consider what it takes to enter an organization built up by this world, such as an organization to feed and care for the homeless. We look upon such an organization and from the outside it seems that we see many persons cooperating unselfishly together to accomplish supplying important needs to homeless people, such as food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. And so we are proud of such an organization for the good we perceive that it does. But then we find out that one of that organization's chief officers occupies a seat high up in that organization which he uses to do very little for the needy, instead enriching himself from the funds that they take in. That officer was in that organization but was he really a part of that organization? No, he was not really a part of that organization. In so far as being in that organization, more aptly said, he was in the pockets of that organization like a leech.

What then is required (spiritually speaking) to really be a part of an organization? It is much like what is required if we are to truthfully say that we love God. Our entire heart, mind, and soul in all our activities within it must be one with it's purpose. Until that day when we have joined our self that completely we remain a mere visitor not having tasted the fullness of that organization's purpose for existing. Until we have done that anything we say concerning that organization is superficial at best and Satan loves to take advantage of that kind of a wish-washy commitment with winds of negative thinking and discontentment.

The answer to the question, “What must I do to be saved?�, was given us in the Bible. We must love God and our neighbor if we would be saved. It is summed up in the greatest commandment and the second like it:

Matthew 22:35-40
35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:
36  Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the great and first commandment.
39  And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40  On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

1 John 4:20-21 “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.�

Approaching that like a mathematical equation does not work:. Love of God is approximately equal to Love of Brother, but notice that I did not say, 'Love of God is equal to Love of Brother.' Why not?

Because Loving our brother is not all that there is to loving God. It is most certainly true that if we do not love our brother we cannot possibly love God but that does not mean that is all that there is to loving God . And that is where some who are agnostic or atheist fail to understand.

What is involved in loving our neighbor or our brother? By his own opinions man has many different answers to that question. So you claim that you love your neighbor? Does God agree with you? If he is real and he doesn't agree that you love your neighbor as you should, and may not even agree that you love your self as you should, and yet you do not allow him to teach you to love, then, what basis have you given him to spare you the permanent death due to sin? And if it would turn out that God is not real and you are certain that will be the case, then what is the point of you wasting your time questioning what you must do to be saved? If you claim that you are working with those who currently believe in God to save them from themselves, what are you saving them to? There is as much disarray in politics and most all other regimentations of this current life as there is among those who claim belief in God. In reality you are just saying that you think your sinking boat is better than their sinking boat.

If we are willing to see it, the political experimentation of the last couple centuries has shown us the lack of wisdom we all share. Our ideas as to what is needed when pressed for has brought this world closer and closer to self-destruction.

The tense situation the United States faces with North Korea and Russia is not caused of a religious difference but is caused of political differences. Iran may be a Muslim country but the major causes of the friction between the United States and Iran is political in nature the same as it is with North Korea and Russia. One could make an enticing sounding case that it is because Iran is a Muslim country that we have friction with them but the fact is that the United Sates entered bad relations with Iran over territorial issues. Not only does Iran resist adopting any similitude of Democracy but has tended to be a fighter against it in the surrounding nations. That is a political venue matter not who tries to turn it on religion as the scapegoat. Via the distortion caused of political rivalry their religions become polluted so as to develop many sects, each of which then serves the political rebellion in it's different and often conflicting way, thus deepening the chaos. That is not much different than how any normal peacetime organization can let itself be enticed by political rivalries to lend their support to one cause or another related to that rivalry. This is the problem with the rivalries of men; They are not self contained and most often they do draw others into the rivalry along with them. Misery loves comfort and the fact is that the promoters of these rivalries deceive themselves feeling that their way is shown to be right by it's ability to draw outside support. And once convicted beyond doubt that their way is right, there is no end to the treachery that becomes excused to be used in seeking to change the minds of dissenters.

If anyone is willing to wake up and smell the roses, the above is a good start. But as far as what is required to be saved; My belief as one who feels certain of the existence of God and of the princely power of God's Son, is that we must completely surrender any and all of our deepest most thoughts, beliefs, and confess literally all of our faults to God for inspection, fully trusting him to know how to help us correct our way. Until we are able to do that we cannot claim to love God. Only then can God transform us to be born again with his seed in us to keep us upright.

1 John 3:9-11
9  “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.� (KJV)

1 John 4:18  “There is no fear in love: true love has no room for fear, because where fear is, there is pain; and he who is not free from fear is not complete in love.� (The Bible in Basic English)

[ttruscott]

In other words, is Christianity a religion that offers salvation due to "belief"? Or is it a religion that offers salvation to the righteous as Jesus taught?

Wrong belief is a sin because it is based upon hating GOD. No one with a wrong belief is righteous no matter how they may act...Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...

[Divine Insight]

When we look at an organization such as that of Jehovah's Witnesses our first tendency is to judge it by this world's standards. But so long as you remain on the outside you will remain unable to see it's true organization

This is provably false. We can see the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult without any need to join it.

You say the following:

The answer to the question, “What must I do to be saved?�, was given us in the Bible. We must love God and our neighbor if we would be saved. It is summed up in the greatest commandment and the second like it:

Matthew 22:35-40
35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:
36  Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the great and first commandment.
39  And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40  On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

1 John 4:20-21 “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.�

Fine. If you believe this then you should also be able to see why many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and many other religious people fulfill this requirement without even acknowledging Christianity or Jesus as the Christ.

Yet, the Jehovah's Witnesses are hypocrites because they go much further than this. They not only demand that people must love God and their brothers and sisters, but that they also must acknowledge, recognize and support the Christian Cult of Jehovah's Witnesses.

A Jehovah's Witness on this very forum has posted on several occasions that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon". What does this say for Catholics who love God through the Catholic Church?

She also didn't have very nice things to say about Pope Francis, yet Pope Francis is probably the most Christ-like Christian on Planet Earth today. Ironically there are many Catholics who hate Pope Francis precisely because he is so Christ-like.

But the bottom line is that religions have nothing to do with loving an God. Many atheists may actually love "God" more than many theists. Atheists just don't label "God" with the title of "God".

In fact, what does the term "God" even mean to a Christian theist? Do they view God as the jealous egotistical male-chauvinist described in the OT? Or have these chosen to reject the original religion and just view Jesus as being God.

In short, who do Jehovah's Witnesses even "love" when they think of loving "God"?

Obviously they need to make an idol image in their mind of what they believe God is before they can even begin to claim to "love" God. Otherwise what is it that they think they are loving?

In fact the post follow you last post says it all. This is a hallmark of the Abrahamic religions with their "Jealous God Cult". They proclaim that if you don't support their cult to the hilt, then you "Hate" God.

These types of religious cults are actually hate cults that use religion to hate on people and then add injury to insult by proclaiming that the people they are hating on brought in on themselves by first hating their specific jealous God.

These are just hate cults. Hate cults that use Jesus as an idol marionette doll that they sit on their lap and use to spread hatred in Jesus' name to everyone who refuses to join their specific hate cult.

Unfortunately this has become a very widespread hobby as there are countless Christian hate cults using their dead Jesus marionette dolls to even hate on each other.

[Left Site]

When we look at an organization such as that of Jehovah's Witnesses our first tendency is to judge it by this world's standards. But so long as you remain on the outside you will remain unable to see it's true organization

This is provably false. We can see the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult without any need to join it.

You say the following:

The answer to the question, “What must I do to be saved?�, was given us in the Bible. We must love God and our neighbor if we would be saved. It is summed up in the greatest commandment and the second like it:

Matthew 22:35-40
35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:
36  Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the great and first commandment.
39  And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40  On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

1 John 4:20-21 “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.�

Fine. If you believe this then you should also be able to see why many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and many other religious people fulfill this requirement without even acknowledging Christianity or Jesus as the Christ.

Yet, the Jehovah's Witnesses are hypocrites because they go much further than this. They not only demand that people must love God and their brothers and sisters, but that they also must acknowledge, recognize and support the Christian Cult of Jehovah's Witnesses.

A Jehovah's Witness on this very forum has posted on several occasions that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon". What does this say for Catholics who love God through the Catholic Church?

She also didn't have very nice things to say about Pope Francis, yet Pope Francis is probably the most Christ-like Christian on Planet Earth today. Ironically there are many Catholics who hate Pope Francis precisely because he is so Christ-like.

But the bottom line is that religions have nothing to do with loving an God. Many atheists may actually love "God" more than many theists. Atheists just don't label "God" with the title of "God".

In fact, what does the term "God" even mean to a Christian theist? Do they view God as the jealous egotistical male-chauvinist described in the OT? Or have these chosen to reject the original religion and just view Jesus as being God.

In short, who do Jehovah's Witnesses even "love" when they think of loving "God"?

Obviously they need to make an idol image in their mind of what they believe God is before they can even begin to claim to "love" God. Otherwise what is it that they think they are loving?

In fact the post follow you last post says it all. This is a hallmark of the Abrahamic religions with their "Jealous God Cult". They proclaim that if you don't support their cult to the hilt, then you "Hate" God.

These types of religious cults are actually hate cults that use religion to hate on people and then add injury to insult by proclaiming that the people they are hating on brought in on themselves by first hating their specific jealous God.

These are just hate cults. Hate cults that use Jesus as an idol marionette doll that they sit on their lap and use to spread hatred in Jesus' name to everyone who refuses to join their specific hate cult.

Unfortunately this has become a very widespread hobby as there are countless Christian hate cults using their dead Jesus marionette dolls to even hate on each other.

Yes, you are right that I feel for example for Catholics who continue to be bombarded with what seems like scolding for the child molestation issues of certain of their clergy. I believe there is a proper and an improper way to address such things. And the proper way is to first humbly acknowledge that all faiths have their measure of such problems by virtue of having to live and function in this wicked world.

I do not feel that I can please Jehovah by seeking faults to pounce on for I would be an irritant to those I wished to help. But it is not just Jehovah's Witnesses that have done that. I am sorry to say that I believe to one degree or another we have all been guilty of it. And we don't resort to it until and unless we have run out of wholesome things to say in support of what we believe. That can also just be that our brain has gotten too tired to think reasonably. For it seems likely that we all should know how we feel when others speak doggedly to us. Therefore if we have begun to speak doggedly to others it is a good sign we should have been self aware and took note of our frustration, whether just due to being tired or due to actually being at a loss for an answer, and should have made a conscious choice to withdraw and recoup before it got translated into our conversation. After all, at that point it is no longer wholesome conversation. Out of love for God and our Lord Jesus Christ we want to always speak for each other's up-building, for that is the love we learned from Christ.

I am not a perfect man... (Yet )

I have my times and I have learned to keep a tight reign on myself and my emotions, preferring to bow out before the fire gets burning. But I am also sure that most who at one time or another have offended us feel that same way. It is not easy being an as yet imperfect human, having to daily fight that old man to keep him laying down in death.

Your comments are appreciated and I will give more thought to it.

[otseng]

These are just hate cults. Hate cults that use Jesus as an idol marionette doll that they sit on their lap and use to spread hatred in Jesus' name to everyone who refuses to join their specific hate cult.

Moderator Comment

It's best not to refer to an entire group as a hate cult.

Please review the Rules.


______________

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[Monta]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]


"If "salvation" is all about what a person believes about Jesus and/or the Father God, then how can this religion be said to have anything at all to do with morality or moral responsibility? "

At least you said "If" and rightly so because that's not how it is.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]


"If "salvation" is all about what a person believes about Jesus and/or the Father God, then how can this religion be said to have anything at all to do with morality or moral responsibility? "

At least you said "If" and rightly so because that's not how it is.

But the problem is that this is how it is in some versions of "Christianity".

How can you say how it is when there are so many disagreeing Christian theologies. Which one represents "how it is"?

The topic of this thread has to do precisely with so-called "Bad Theologies". What if you are believing the wrong things because you bought into a Bad Christian Theology? Then what? Would your salvation then be affected by the fact that you are believing in and therefore acting on the teachings of a bad theology?

That's a very good question to be sure. But at that same time this brings into question the Christian theologies that actually suggest that morality is the core value.

There are "Christian Theists" (some who have posted on this forum) who believe and proclaim to the world salvation is entirely dependent upon a personal moral values and not at all on what they believe. In fact, these Christian Theists even allow that a person does not even need to be a "Christian" or even believe in Christ at all.

I'm pretty sure Pope Francis is such a theist. Hasn't he publicly stated that even atheists can go to heaven if they are indeed good people and live their lives according to the moral teachings of Jesus?

I think there are a lot of Christians who believe that living a life based on what Jesus taught is far more important than what a person believes about him.

In fact, when I was a Christian myself I supported this very view. As a Christian I would point to verses like John 12:47-48 and Luke 6:37 as possible paths to salvation that do not even require believing in Jesus or Christianity at all.

So the "IF" you are talking about most certainly does require that we ask "Which version of Christianity are we even considering here?"

Please note that even as a "Christian" I was chastised by many other "Christians" for my views on what Christianity should represent or be all about.

Of course, I have finally come to reject the Biblical Scriptures entirely due to their own self-contradictory claims and decrees. And so for this reason I no longer proclaim to be a "Christian" at all. Because as far as I'm concerned Christianity is ultimately based upon the Old Testament and the idea that Jesus is the miraculous virgin-born Son of Yahweh. And I no longer believe that.

Actually based on the way that some people use the term "Christian" to simply mean that they agree with, and follow the basic moral framework that Jesus had laid out, I could still call myself a "Christian" in that same way. Although having said that I would note that I don't feel like I'm "following" the moral teachings of Jesus but instead I simply see Jesus as being in agreement with what I already personally feel to be good moral principles.

But the question still remains. What is Christianity? Everyone, including the Christians themselves all seem to have a totally different idea of what Christianity means to them.

I know Catholics who renounce Pope Francis because they don't like the Pope's opinions on Christianity.

So who is an authority on Christianity? Apparently no one.

I actually agree with Pope Francis on many things. Perhaps I should become a Catholic? Although I imagine Pope Francis also believes the whole virgin-birth story of Jesus being the virgin-born son of God. That I simply cannot believe for reasons I won't go into here.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 18 by Divine Insight]



"So who is an authority on Christianity? Apparently no one."

And that is how it should be. We have written Word, we all can read, we all have intelligence to accept or reject. We have choice which churches to attend if we want to. We have choice of religion to follow.

There's not two humans who shall understand any scripture in exactly the same way. The concept of 'God' is different with ea human even if they are following the same doctrine.
It is genuine love of truth that counts. Why do we sill get it wrong? It's a process. We find one kernel of truth to start us thinking and build on that and continue to build on it to eternity

[Divine Insight]

I do not feel that I can please Jehovah by seeking faults to pounce on for I would be an irritant to those I wished to help.

I have come to realize that evangelism in any form is a contradictory endeavor. It basically cannot be possible for one human being to help another human attain salvation. The reason this makes no sense is because if this were true then our salvation could ultimately depend upon whether or not we happen to meet a compelling evangelist.

It also seems rather strange to me that we as humans should need to worry about, or be the slightest bit concerned about the eternal fate of any human soul. This might, at first sight, sound dispassionate. Like as if we just don't care what happens to other humans. But the real question is, "Does God care?" If God cares, then surely this God already has a foolproof righteous and just system of salvation already in place.

In other words, it would necessarily be impossible for a person who deserves to be saved to "fall through the cracks" of a perfect system of justice and salvation.

Therefore, no one can possibly "fall through the cracks" who doesn't absolutely deserve to be damned. For if they did, then God's plan for salvation would be grossly flawed where people who don't deserve to be damned could "fall through the cracks".

Therefore a human evangelist cannot possibly be responsible for, or even contribute in any way, to anyone's salvation.

Why not?

Well, it should be obvious. If the actions of an evangelist ends in someone being saved who would have otherwise been damned, then this can only mean that God would have allowed that person to be damned had it not been for the intervention of the evangelist.

This is extremely problematic. This means that an evangelist could be potentially "saving" souls that God would have otherwise damned. That makes no sense.

So evangelism is a misguided notion. All an evangelist is doing is trying to save souls that God might otherwise damn if the evangelist doesn't try to intervene.

This just makes no sense if this God's system of salvation is supposed to be perfect and without flaw.

If God's system of justice and salvation is flawless, then there is nothing we can do to influence the salvation of anyone other than possibly our very own self.

And if God's system of justice and salvation is flawed, then his entire religion has major problems.

So any attempt to try to "help" anyone in terms of spiritual guidance or in seeking salvation through Christ makes no sense at all. Save for possibly if someone actively comes to the evangelist asking for help. But even then, if the evangelist refuses to help that can't possibly make a difference in terms of whether or not the original person is worthy of salvation or not. They are either worthy of salvation, or they deserve to be damned. There cannot be any such thing as anyone "falling through the cracks". That would imply a faulty system of salvation that can allow people who deserve salvation to be damned simply because of who they met or didn't meet during their life. That would be a system of salvation that amounted to nothing more than basically a crap shoot with a person's eternal soul.

So to even try to help someone find salvation actually violates the whole idea that this God knows what he's doing or has a sound system of salvation already in place.

We as humans cannot possibly play a role in anyone's salvation, for if we did then their salvation could ultimately depend upon us and that wouldn't be fair to them.