Required vow of obedience?

[tam]

May you have peace!

From another thread:

Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?

The organization in question requires this vow at baptism.

I have asked this question before and I don't recall receiving a response, but:

What right does this organization (or any other sect or denomination) have to require their members to first vow obedience to them, to begin with? Who or what gave them that right?

Christ?

Did He instruct anyone to require this (vow of obedience to them) at baptism?



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by tam]

Do you have a reference for this, I would like to read the full published quotation in our (Jehovah's Witnesses) publication as I do not recognize these words.

Thanks,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



QUESTION: Do Jehovah's Witnesses make vows to their organization?

No, their vows are to Jehovah and to his service. That said, service to Jehovah means being loyal to whatever means He is using at whatever moment in time to fulfill his will. Presently Jehovah is using his an earthly organization in this way, thus the baptism questions* ask candidates whether they had dedicated yourself to Jehovah bur also whether they have understood that their dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization. Naturally their recognizing the above means they will strive to be loyal and obedient to that organization as it is an expression of Jehovah's means of governing and directing his people today.


see The Watchtower, April 2017 p. 6 par 10
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017365#h=20



* The Public Questions are as follows:

QUESTION ONE
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

QUESTION TWO
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

[tam]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I did not reference your publications. It was a direct quote from a JW on this forum.


Is it incorrect?



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I did not reference your publications.

Okay, that's what I thought. I have no comment on what others say only on what I believe. May I suggest you go back and get clarification from the person concerned.

My comments are above,

JW

[tam]

From the same article that you referenced, next paragraph:

Have you dedicated your life to Jehovah and symbolized your dedication by water baptism? If so, that is wonderful! Recall that on your baptism day, before eyewitnesses, you were asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.� Your affirmative answers served as a public declaration of your unreserved dedication and showed that you were qualified for baptism as an ordained minister of Jehovah.

So you are saying that this is not a dedication of obedience to the organization? Correct?


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by tam]

see above.

[tam]

No, their vows are to Jehovah and to his service. That said, service to Jehovah means being loyal to whatever means He is using at whatever moment in time to fulfill his will. Presently Jehovah is using his an earthly organization in this way, thus the baptism questions ask candidates whether they had dedicated yourself to Jehovah bur also whether they have understood that their dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization. Naturally their recognizing the above means they will strive to be loyal and obedient to that organization as it is an expression of Jehovah's means of governing and directing his people today.

So basically the baptismal vows are supposed to be understood as saying that one must obey the organization that they have 'associated' themselves with.


May I ask then where Christ said that we are to make such a dedication?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

No, their vows are to Jehovah and to his service.

May I ask then where Christ said that we are to make such a dedication?

MATTHEW 16: 24
Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.

MATTHEW 22: 37
‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’

[tam]

Peace to you.

Please note that neither of those quotes support a requirement of making either a public declaration of dedication to [Jehovah], or even of making a private declaration of dedication.

If one wants to follow Christ, then just do it. No dedication vow required.

That said, please note that I was referring to the second quote and public dedication (as well as the explanation you provided that goes along with it).

No, their vows are to Jehovah and to his service.

May I ask then where Christ said that we are to make such a dedication?

MATTHEW 16
Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.

MATTHEW 22: 37“‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul* and with your whole mind.’

So if one were to follow Christ out of that organization, then one will have broken no vows. Correct?

If one were to discover that something the organization commands (or teaches) is in conflict with something that Christ commands (or teaches), and that one chooses to obey (and believe) Christ, then he will have broken no vows. Correct?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by tam]

QUESTION Are dedication (a vow) and obedience the same thing?

No, dedication is an unconditional vow to a person or a cause without reservation; naturally a deidication encompasses obedience. The dedication that preceeds baptism is a life long vow to belong to Jehovah.

Obedience is a determination to follow instructions all obedience to humans is relative. All dedication involves some form of obedience but not all obedience reflects being dedicated. For example, Children are told to obey their parents, wives are expected to obey their husbands, Christians are told to obey secular authorities and members of the Christian congregation told to obey those taking the lead. None of the above (with the exception of marriage) involve a vow, much less a vow of dedication.

In short dedication to God (vowing one's life to God) will involve obedience. Let's take an example of the requirement for Christians to obey the secular authorities. The law prohibits for example drinking and driving. Can a person deliberately disobey this law while living up to their Christian dedication? Of course not, this would needlessly endanger lives and is contrary to the Christian law of Love. Thus it is understood by Christians that their dedication to Jehovah will INVOLVE or publically associate them with a certain line of conduct. Namely being obedient to various legitimate authorities whether those authorities be secular or spiritual.


JW