Here is a thread I started on another forum, but wanted to put it up here as well. I am new here, but I am already enjoying this forum much better. Less trolls and better discussion and attitudes.
*********************************************
This is a response to a tread about John 1:1 and how the New World Translation corrects this mistake about calling the Word "God". The NWT claims to fix this issue by calling the Word "a god". Next the assertion is there are many gods in the Bible and being a god is different than being God, implying that God is not a god. Being a god is said to be more of a title or status, and nothing could be further from the truth.
First there is a word play here does not exist in the Hebrew. There is no capitalization in Hebrew, so in English terms, there is no big or little g. The context of the scripture would have let the reader know which god is being talked about. Even from a grammatical point of view this changes nothing. Here is what I mean. It is grammatically correct and scripturally correct for me to say that "God is a god". God is just a proper pronoun letting us know which god we are talking about. A god is not a status but the nature of something. God is a god because he happens to be a spiritually divine being.
So changing John 1:1 does not change the problem of the Word being called God. You are still left with a big problem of the identity of Jesus if he was by nature an elohim.
The next tactic that will be used to to bring up that there are many gods in the Bible. This is a silly argument, because all of the other gods of the Bible are false gods or men calling themselves gods. Neither of the two pleases God, so I find it odd that this is used to justify the Word being called a god/elohim and he not be God. Lets break it down even further. Just because men made up gods and created images to them, does not make them a real god. Same if a man calls himself or another person a god, it does not make them a true god. Again this does not please God to do so.
Here is my beleif, that God/elohim is the only real god/elohim in the scriptures. All other gods/elohim are false gods/elohim. No where in scripture is it a good thing to be call a god/elohim if the thing being talked about is not God himself.
While I started off mentioning The NWT I am eager to hear from all who do not believe that Jesus is God, not just Jehovahs Witness. I prefer not to hear from Trinitarians and Unitarians on this post, but ultimately am not opposed to it.
My last request is that for those responding, try and keep it short. I do not want a page of verses quoted and a dissertation on each on. Lets try and keep it to a verse or two at a time so we can actually have a discussion that is meaningful.
Thanks and look forward to hearing from all of you out there.
The New World Translation does not change John 1:1
Moderator: Moderators
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Post #21
Is that what you think, lol? Ok well I was going to respond in a different way but sense you want to take a little bit of condescending tone that is fine. I have answered all you guys questions that you have asked and not once have you disproved what I said. There are still questions you guys have not answered of me. So just because I was not shut down within a few post like most who want to have a discussion, now you want to say just go away and I do not know what I am talking about. Gotcha. Just so you know I do learn a lot from all perspectives and I use to really enjoy talking to JayDubs. If you truly claim to follow Christ AND you put yourself in role of spreading the gospel you are called to do this and you will be talking about this ad nauseum.onewithhim wrote:It might be a wiser use of time if you would give up the idea of arguing with tigger, because it will get you nowhere. He knows what he's talking about, and if you would read his posts carefully you would see the sense of it all. He and JW and timothy and I have explained John 1:1 ad nauseum, and just because you do not understand it you go on spending vast amounts of time arguing against the facts.EastwardTraveler wrote: [Replying to post 14 by tigger2]
So I am going to respond in length, but I do not know if I will do this in one or two post. I should have it done in a few hours, but that is if work and kids do not hang me up.
Spend time with your work and kids. That would be a better use of your time.
Maybe Tigger does know what he is talking about as do the rest of you, but quoting some websites does not prove so. I question whether you guys have read any of this stuff, because I am going to prove that you guys may not know exactly what you in fact what you are truly talking about. Either that or you are being dishonest on some points.
Chit chat with you all soon.
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9060
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1238 times
- Been thanked: 315 times
Post #22
I don't mean to be condescending. I apologize if I came across that way. I genuinely felt that you could make better use of your valuable time, honestly. You say "not once" have we successfully disproved what you said. I wonder if all other people looking on would say that. I feel that we have successfully disproved your assertions.EastwardTraveler wrote:Is that what you think, lol? Ok well I was going to respond in a different way but sense you want to take a little bit of condescending tone that is fine. I have answered all you guys questions that you have asked and not once have you disproved what I said. There are still questions you guys have not answered of me. So just because I was not shut down within a few post like most who want to have a discussion, now you want to say just go away and I do not know what I am talking about. Gotcha. Just so you know I do learn a lot from all perspectives and I use to really enjoy talking to JayDubs. If you truly claim to follow Christ AND you put yourself in role of spreading the gospel you are called to do this and you will be talking about this ad nauseum.onewithhim wrote:It might be a wiser use of time if you would give up the idea of arguing with tigger, because it will get you nowhere. He knows what he's talking about, and if you would read his posts carefully you would see the sense of it all. He and JW and timothy and I have explained John 1:1 ad nauseum, and just because you do not understand it you go on spending vast amounts of time arguing against the facts.EastwardTraveler wrote: [Replying to post 14 by tigger2]
So I am going to respond in length, but I do not know if I will do this in one or two post. I should have it done in a few hours, but that is if work and kids do not hang me up.
Spend time with your work and kids. That would be a better use of your time.
Maybe Tigger does know what he is talking about as do the rest of you, but quoting some websites does not prove so. I question whether you guys have read any of this stuff, because I am going to prove that you guys may not know exactly what you in fact what you are truly talking about. Either that or you are being dishonest on some points.
Chit chat with you all soon.
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: The New World Translation does not change John 1:1
Post #23[Replying to post 11 by EastwardTraveler]
The Lord is The God, not a god(man made) Here's a nice list of scripture saying that:
1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
The Lord is The God, not a god(man made) Here's a nice list of scripture saying that:
1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
-
brianbbs67
- Guru
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:07 am
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Post #24
Also , I would add that John is the only writer of the 4 gospels that goes into this narrative. Christ never does anywhere else in the other three as far as I can tell. But, John, is possibly written by John. So, an eyewitness and disciple.
Post #25
EastwardTraveler post #9:
In scripture the word "god" is not applied to something or someone that has power and influence. The gods of the Bible do have power and authority but that is not the context is always of a spiritual and divine creature.
post #11:
When we talk about a god in the scripture, we are talking about a divine spiritual being. That is the context we see in scripture, especially in the old testament. No where in scripture is it good to be called a god and scripture not be talking about Jehovah, no where end of statement. .... If scripture is referring to something that is a god and is real, and is apart [ a part of ?] Jehovah's system then we must be talking about Jehovah himself, because he is the only real god in existence.
T2 post #14 Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:13 pm: Most scholars listed here acknowledge: God's angels, kings, judges called 'gods' in Scripture.
ET Post #18: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:55 am:
"The author [John] uses a specific word that means a divine spiritual being."
[Emphasis added]
ET continues with his error in post #18 that theos always indicates "a divine spiritual being" in spite of the very lengthy list of scholars (post #14 above) who disagree with him which was posted over 15 hours (and 4 posts) earlier.
In scripture the word "god" is not applied to something or someone that has power and influence. The gods of the Bible do have power and authority but that is not the context is always of a spiritual and divine creature.
post #11:
When we talk about a god in the scripture, we are talking about a divine spiritual being. That is the context we see in scripture, especially in the old testament. No where in scripture is it good to be called a god and scripture not be talking about Jehovah, no where end of statement. .... If scripture is referring to something that is a god and is real, and is apart [ a part of ?] Jehovah's system then we must be talking about Jehovah himself, because he is the only real god in existence.
T2 post #14 Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:13 pm: Most scholars listed here acknowledge: God's angels, kings, judges called 'gods' in Scripture.
ET Post #18: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:55 am:
"The author [John] uses a specific word that means a divine spiritual being."
[Emphasis added]
ET continues with his error in post #18 that theos always indicates "a divine spiritual being" in spite of the very lengthy list of scholars (post #14 above) who disagree with him which was posted over 15 hours (and 4 posts) earlier.
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Post #26
tigger2 wrote:
Numerous Trinitarian scholars admit that theos/elohim was also used for angels, kings, and God-appointed men such as judges in Israel. In such cases it is usually rendered into English as ‘gods’ or ‘a god.’ And it was used that way in the Greek in the writings of Christians up to the time of Augustine at least.
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:
That maybe well, but I am allowed to disagree with them just as you guys do. You guys do not hold them as authoritative so we do have some room to discuss here. If you can quote them, then I can as well. Some of what you have quoted/cited will support what I have claimed as well. I wonder how much of this stuff have you guys have read or did you just quote this list from the internet, because that list is on many internet cites. Just one question before we delve into that list as well as some Watch Tower theology, is that your list that you have read through Tigger or did you just quote it? No problem either way, just curious.
Jesus himself admitted the same - John 10 :34, 35.
And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for "God"/"a god" about the same time the NT was written.
We will see if what Jesus said in John 10 and Psalms 82 line up with what you claim.
Philo really? Have you read Philo? I have read his works and it is the exact opposite of what you claim. Philo calls the Word the second God(that's right, the second big G god who is God himself) Over and over again Philo talks about the plurality of the godhead. He calls God a triad as well as saying, "It is reasonable for three to be one and one to be three". What in the world is an ancient Jewish scholar saying this? Why was he not exiledor stoned by his peers in Alexandia and Jerusalem? The answer might surprise you, but I digress. So have you read Philo and are being deceitful or do you truly know what you are talking about? (I am not going to cite Philo in correct format because I do not have my book with me and will not for a couple of days. The internet does have these citations, but when I cross referenced them in my book some of the page and section numbers where off. I just want to be honest and let you know and will get those correct citations to you in MLA format to you as soon as possible. I you do not believe me I do believe there is an online version of Philos works but I believe they suffer from the same problem. It is correct, just wrong section numbers.)
For everybody's info you can buy The Works of Philo:Complete and unabridged by C. D. Yonge on Amazon and Barnes and Nobles for about $20 bucks. It is very enlightening is all I will say if you are interested on this subject. For all you Christians out there I highly suggest you go out and buy Philo's works and study it. I believe you will be surprised to hear and ancient Jew sound awfully alot like a modern day Christian, but I digress.
And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for "a god." And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree.
Interestingly enough some of these early church fathers were quoting Philo when they used the as we now know as Trinity. Again have you guys read any of this stuff or are you just quoting what you read on the internet and pamphlets the Watch Tower puts out?
My last response to this is the context of some of this scripture is what we are going to delve into and we will see where we go from there. And just as a side note, I can quote other scholars that will agree with me as well.
YHWH is the God of gods.
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Post #27
In this post I am going to recap a little about what we have gone over and where I believe we stand. If you feel me incorrect please let me know and try and do it by one or two points. I am not as gifted as you guys and get swamped fairly easily. Plus it is hard to keep up with what I have responded to and have not. I honestly want to thank onewithhim, tigger2, and JehovahsWitness for helping me keep up with what I have and have not addressed. So I want to cover just a few verses and then state a few of my points. I'll let you respond and then we will continue.
So the debate is centered around the Hebrew word elohim translated god. My claim is that word pertains to spiritual beings. A list was provided by Tigger2 that shows that I am wrong on this matter, but I want use #2 on the list to prove a point about the word elohim.
"65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28...."
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
Here we see the the word el/elohim #430 as decribed by Strong's Exhaustive concordance concurs with me on the fact that the the word is used of God and god. True God, false god, ect. The point here is that the capitalization we see in the English really doesn't not matter and that brings me to my earlier point that in Hebrew has no capitalization and it is context that lets us know which God/god we are talking about. The word would have had a specific context to an ancient Jew. As for the context I will delve into each one if you give me a little time and then you can respond from there to see if we can add humans to the list as it says above. The reason I stand on this point about the capitalization is that when we read scripture such as Isaiah 45:5, 44:6-8, or Hosea 13:4, the point is made this is not talking about little g god, but Big G Gods. This presents some problems of its own and brings us no closer to finding out what God wants.
For example:Hosea 13:4
King James Bible
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
NWT
But I am Jehovah your God from* the land of Egypt;+You knew no God except me,And besides me there is no savior.+
JPS Tanakh 1917
Yet I am the LORD thy God From the land of Egypt; And thou knowest no God but Me, And beside Me there is no saviour.
Notice how the King James make no difference here, but let us say that there is an importance in the capitalization. So which are we not to have? Is it alright to know/have gods as long as it is not a God. If the passage explicitly means "no other God", I thought by capitalizing it we were only talking about God anyway. If there is only one God and many gods then where are these other Gods that scripture seems to want to imply may be out there. Why worry about another God is there is indeed only one and all the ancients knew this? It gets more confusing to know that some of the Pagan gods claimed to be God as well so where does that put us. Are they now a God even if they are false? As Jehovah Witness asked or stated in post #12 that it does not matter if they are real or imaginary then this complicates the issue, because like I said many of these false gods claimed to be God so where does that put us? It makes much more sense that Jehovah is claiming to be a divine spiritual being and there are no others, even though the pagans have many false Gods and gods. I want to parallel this with post #23, but will do so separately since this is already getting lengthy.
So I want to cover Psalms 82. The Watch Tower and many scholars believe this is talking about men, but a closer examination will prove this to be highly unlikely.
NWT
82 God takes his place in the divine assembly;*+In the middle of the gods* he judges:+ 2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice+And show partiality to the wicked?+ (Selah) 3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.+ Render justice to the helpless and destitute.+ 4 Rescue the lowly and the poor;Save them out of the hand of the wicked.� 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;+They are walking about in darkness;All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.+ 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*+All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do;+And like any other prince you will fall!’�+ 8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,+For all the nations belong to you.
God is standing in the midst of the divine assembly here, so I ask when does God stand in the midst of men? Also note that these gods are being judged. It is not a good thing to be called a god here. They are doing something wrong and will be judged for it. Verse 7 seems to indicate further who we are talking about sense it says that these "gods" will die like men. Kinda of funny to tell men they will die like men.
Lets also compare Psalms 89:5-6
NWT
5 The heavens praise your marvels, O Jehovah,Yes, your faithfulness in the congregation of the holy ones. 6 For who in the skies can compare to Jehovah?+ Who among the sons of God+ is like Jehovah?
So where is this divine assembly taking place. It is pretty clear it is in the sky so if the Judges of Israel learned to fly this is a heavenly court, not an earthly one. And across the board most scholars see this as the same assembly as in Psalms 82 AND that is a heavenly one. Do you still stand by that list and how authoritative it is?
Let us also look at the Watch Tower and early Christianity's own theology and reasoning real quick to see if we can get any help. Job 1:6 is said to have happened in heaven since these sons of God present themselves before. Since men and angels are assumed by most to share the title of sons of god, we deduce this happens in heaven because these sons of God are in Gods presence. Why not the same reasoning in Psalms 82?
In conclusion Psalms 82 is talking about spiritual beings. Secondly it is not a good thing to be called a god in this chapter. These are haughty beings that are being judged. Also if this talking about an earthly meeting, does this not present a problem for Jesus? Are the ones being talked about the Scribes and Pharisees and the one standing in their midst is Jesus? Who does that make him? Does not Jehovah stand in their midst calling them Gods?
As a scholarly source would turn to Dr. Michael Heiser, who is a world renowned ancient Hebrew scholar who has written extensively on this and he asserts that Psalms 82 is a heavenly meeting. Also he delves into divine council language that is not apart of Watch Tower theology or mainstream Christianity that shows these are not just angels, but false gods relating to the Tower of Babel indecent. Again this is not a verse you want to use to justify the Word being called a god.
I will end here and post some other points next to all digest this and respond. Last Dr. Michael Heiser website is http://drmsh.com/ and he makes alot of his material available for free. He is a very enlightening individual.
So the debate is centered around the Hebrew word elohim translated god. My claim is that word pertains to spiritual beings. A list was provided by Tigger2 that shows that I am wrong on this matter, but I want use #2 on the list to prove a point about the word elohim.
"65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28...."
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
Here we see the the word el/elohim #430 as decribed by Strong's Exhaustive concordance concurs with me on the fact that the the word is used of God and god. True God, false god, ect. The point here is that the capitalization we see in the English really doesn't not matter and that brings me to my earlier point that in Hebrew has no capitalization and it is context that lets us know which God/god we are talking about. The word would have had a specific context to an ancient Jew. As for the context I will delve into each one if you give me a little time and then you can respond from there to see if we can add humans to the list as it says above. The reason I stand on this point about the capitalization is that when we read scripture such as Isaiah 45:5, 44:6-8, or Hosea 13:4, the point is made this is not talking about little g god, but Big G Gods. This presents some problems of its own and brings us no closer to finding out what God wants.
For example:Hosea 13:4
King James Bible
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
NWT
But I am Jehovah your God from* the land of Egypt;+You knew no God except me,And besides me there is no savior.+
JPS Tanakh 1917
Yet I am the LORD thy God From the land of Egypt; And thou knowest no God but Me, And beside Me there is no saviour.
Notice how the King James make no difference here, but let us say that there is an importance in the capitalization. So which are we not to have? Is it alright to know/have gods as long as it is not a God. If the passage explicitly means "no other God", I thought by capitalizing it we were only talking about God anyway. If there is only one God and many gods then where are these other Gods that scripture seems to want to imply may be out there. Why worry about another God is there is indeed only one and all the ancients knew this? It gets more confusing to know that some of the Pagan gods claimed to be God as well so where does that put us. Are they now a God even if they are false? As Jehovah Witness asked or stated in post #12 that it does not matter if they are real or imaginary then this complicates the issue, because like I said many of these false gods claimed to be God so where does that put us? It makes much more sense that Jehovah is claiming to be a divine spiritual being and there are no others, even though the pagans have many false Gods and gods. I want to parallel this with post #23, but will do so separately since this is already getting lengthy.
So I want to cover Psalms 82. The Watch Tower and many scholars believe this is talking about men, but a closer examination will prove this to be highly unlikely.
NWT
82 God takes his place in the divine assembly;*+In the middle of the gods* he judges:+ 2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice+And show partiality to the wicked?+ (Selah) 3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.+ Render justice to the helpless and destitute.+ 4 Rescue the lowly and the poor;Save them out of the hand of the wicked.� 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;+They are walking about in darkness;All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.+ 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*+All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do;+And like any other prince you will fall!’�+ 8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,+For all the nations belong to you.
God is standing in the midst of the divine assembly here, so I ask when does God stand in the midst of men? Also note that these gods are being judged. It is not a good thing to be called a god here. They are doing something wrong and will be judged for it. Verse 7 seems to indicate further who we are talking about sense it says that these "gods" will die like men. Kinda of funny to tell men they will die like men.
Lets also compare Psalms 89:5-6
NWT
5 The heavens praise your marvels, O Jehovah,Yes, your faithfulness in the congregation of the holy ones. 6 For who in the skies can compare to Jehovah?+ Who among the sons of God+ is like Jehovah?
So where is this divine assembly taking place. It is pretty clear it is in the sky so if the Judges of Israel learned to fly this is a heavenly court, not an earthly one. And across the board most scholars see this as the same assembly as in Psalms 82 AND that is a heavenly one. Do you still stand by that list and how authoritative it is?
Let us also look at the Watch Tower and early Christianity's own theology and reasoning real quick to see if we can get any help. Job 1:6 is said to have happened in heaven since these sons of God present themselves before. Since men and angels are assumed by most to share the title of sons of god, we deduce this happens in heaven because these sons of God are in Gods presence. Why not the same reasoning in Psalms 82?
In conclusion Psalms 82 is talking about spiritual beings. Secondly it is not a good thing to be called a god in this chapter. These are haughty beings that are being judged. Also if this talking about an earthly meeting, does this not present a problem for Jesus? Are the ones being talked about the Scribes and Pharisees and the one standing in their midst is Jesus? Who does that make him? Does not Jehovah stand in their midst calling them Gods?
As a scholarly source would turn to Dr. Michael Heiser, who is a world renowned ancient Hebrew scholar who has written extensively on this and he asserts that Psalms 82 is a heavenly meeting. Also he delves into divine council language that is not apart of Watch Tower theology or mainstream Christianity that shows these are not just angels, but false gods relating to the Tower of Babel indecent. Again this is not a verse you want to use to justify the Word being called a god.
I will end here and post some other points next to all digest this and respond. Last Dr. Michael Heiser website is http://drmsh.com/ and he makes alot of his material available for free. He is a very enlightening individual.
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Post #28
So this is what I was talking about in my first post about elohim. I am not in error here. Look at your list please. The entirety of the list is referencing Old Testament verses of the word elohim and the few New Testament verses are quoting the OT. So who now is mixing the Greek and Hebrew. This is why I said I went to the Hebrew word elohim when talking about the Greek because we are talking about the Hebrew context. So when I was talking about the Greek I meant specifically the Koine Greek definition of the word theos. In which I am correct.https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/theostigger2 wrote: EastwardTraveler post #9:
In scripture the word "god" is not applied to something or someone that has power and influence. The gods of the Bible do have power and authority but that is not the context is always of a spiritual and divine creature.
post #11:
When we talk about a god in the scripture, we are talking about a divine spiritual being. That is the context we see in scripture, especially in the old testament. No where in scripture is it good to be called a god and scripture not be talking about Jehovah, no where end of statement. .... If scripture is referring to something that is a god and is real, and is apart [ a part of ?] Jehovah's system then we must be talking about Jehovah himself, because he is the only real god in existence.
T2 post #14 Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:13 pm: Most scholars listed here acknowledge: God's angels, kings, judges called 'gods' in Scripture.
ET Post #18: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:55 am:
"The author [John] uses a specific word that means a divine spiritual being."
[Emphasis added]
ET continues with his error in post #18 that theos always indicates "a divine spiritual being" in spite of the very lengthy list of scholars (post #14 above) who disagree with him which was posted over 15 hours (and 4 posts) earlier.
All examples in billmounce are of spiritual creatures with the exception of John 10:34-35 which is up for debate and in two previous post earlier, made a solid case for these beings being spiritual.
So from the greek I am correct in its contextual use in the New Testament scripture and I am correct in its Greek use. In the modern.
http://www.wordreference.com/engr/god
Again if the greek writter wanted you to know that Jesus had assumed the position of god through power and authority, the author could have used other greek words to do so, but chose to use a word IN Greek that is specifically defined as a god as in a spiritually divine being.
-
EastwardTraveler
- Student
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:43 am
- Location: Atlanta, Ga
Re: The New World Translation does not change John 1:1
Post #29brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 11 by EastwardTraveler]
The Lord is The God, not a god(man made) Here's a nice list of scripture saying that:
the word god does not mean man made at all. Show me a definition that say so. Then there is Tigger2 list that disproves this. "65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28...."
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
That word is used of both God and a god. It is the context that lets you know the deference between the two and which is being talked about.
1. Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
2. Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
3. Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
4. 2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
5. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
7. 2 Kings 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
8. 1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
9. Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
10. Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
11. Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
12. Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
13. Isaiah43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
14. Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
15. Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
16. Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
17. Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
18. Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
19. Zechariah 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
20. Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
21. John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
22. Romans 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
23. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
24. Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
25. Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
26. 1 Timothy 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
27. 1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
28. James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Post #30
[Replying to post 26 by EastwardTraveler]
T2:
ET:
Do you really not understand that a noted trinitarian scholar will nearly always agree with a trinitarian interpretation and ignore or downplay an alternate non-trinitarian interpretation?
Of course you will find trinitarian interpretations by trinitarian scholars (just look at the trinity-supporting 'evidence' found in most Bibles)! But when many noted trinitarian scholars agree on a non-trinity-supporting interpretation of scripture, that makes it virtually certain.
Yes, I created that list. If I should copy something, I will give the reference. It would be nice if you would do the same (don't just refer to ancient rabbis and such).
But what if one of us should use the WT as a source for a post? Are you unwilling to examine it simply because of your bias? Don't we examine and use trinitarian sources?
PHILO
“Philo, the famous Jewish philosopher, .... is the most important example of the Hellenized Jews outside Palestine... he believed wholly in the Mosaic scriptures and in one God whose chief mediator with the world is the Logos� - Philo , vol. 5, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, 1988.
Eminent NT scholar Dr. E. F. Scott writes:
“The prologue [of the Gospel of John] consists of a succinct statement of a Philonic doctrine of the Logos, which is forthwith identified with Jesus Christ.� - p. 54, The Fourth Gospel, Its purpose and Theology .
"... it is barely possible that these extraneous theologies may have exercised some influence on the Fourth Evangelist [John], but there can be little doubt in regard to the main source from which his Logos doctrine was derived. It had come down to him through Philo , after its final development in Greek philosophy.� - p. 146.
“The Fourth Gospel is based on a doctrine of the Logos which to all appearance is closely similar to that of Philo. …. every verse in the Prologue offers striking analogies to corresponding sayings of Philo. We have seen reason to believe that John had acquainted himself directly with the works of the Alexandrian thinker, and consciously derived from them.� - p. 154, The Fourth Gospel, Its purpose and Theology, E. F. Scott, D.D.
Philo “differentiates the Logos from God as his work or image [2 Cor. 4:4].� Philo’s Logos is also “first-born son [Ro. 8:29]....divine [a god - Jn 1:1] but not God, is with God [Jn 1:1], is light [Jn 1:4],...manna [Jn 6:31-51],...and shepherd [Jn 10:11].� - Encyclopaedia Britannica, p. 251, vol. 14, 1968. (Cf. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, vol. 8, p. 135.)
“Philo of course conceives of the Logos - which he occasionally calls divine (θεὸς) [literally, 'a god'], but never ‘God’ (� θεὸς) - as the highest angel and as the highest idea at the same time....� - p. 126, John 1, Haenchen, Fortress Press, 1984.
“The Logos which having been in the beginning, and with God, and divine [‘a god’], had entered human life and history as the Word ‘made flesh!’ .... But the identification of Jesus with the Logos was not tantamount to recognizing him as ‘God.’ Neither the ‘Word of God’ in Hebrew nomenclature nor the Logos in Greek speculation was ‘God’ though it was definitely ‘divine’ [‘a god’].� - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., vol. 13, p.25.
T2:
------------------Numerous Trinitarian scholars admit that theos/elohim was also used for angels, kings, and God-appointed men such as judges in Israel. In such cases it is usually rendered into English as ‘gods’ or ‘a god.’ And it was used that way in the Greek in the writings of Christians up to the time of Augustine at least.
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:
ET:
-------------------That maybe well, but I am allowed to disagree with them just as you guys do. You guys do not hold them as authoritative so we do have some room to discuss here. If you can quote them, then I can as well. Some of what you have quoted/cited will support what I have claimed as well. I wonder how much of this stuff have you guys have read or did you just quote this list from the internet, because that list is on many internet cites. Just one question before we delve into that list as well as some Watch Tower theology, is that your list that you have read through Tigger or did you just quote it? No problem either way, just curious.
Do you really not understand that a noted trinitarian scholar will nearly always agree with a trinitarian interpretation and ignore or downplay an alternate non-trinitarian interpretation?
Of course you will find trinitarian interpretations by trinitarian scholars (just look at the trinity-supporting 'evidence' found in most Bibles)! But when many noted trinitarian scholars agree on a non-trinity-supporting interpretation of scripture, that makes it virtually certain.
Yes, I created that list. If I should copy something, I will give the reference. It would be nice if you would do the same (don't just refer to ancient rabbis and such).
But what if one of us should use the WT as a source for a post? Are you unwilling to examine it simply because of your bias? Don't we examine and use trinitarian sources?
PHILO
“Philo, the famous Jewish philosopher, .... is the most important example of the Hellenized Jews outside Palestine... he believed wholly in the Mosaic scriptures and in one God whose chief mediator with the world is the Logos� - Philo , vol. 5, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, 1988.
Eminent NT scholar Dr. E. F. Scott writes:
“The prologue [of the Gospel of John] consists of a succinct statement of a Philonic doctrine of the Logos, which is forthwith identified with Jesus Christ.� - p. 54, The Fourth Gospel, Its purpose and Theology .
"... it is barely possible that these extraneous theologies may have exercised some influence on the Fourth Evangelist [John], but there can be little doubt in regard to the main source from which his Logos doctrine was derived. It had come down to him through Philo , after its final development in Greek philosophy.� - p. 146.
“The Fourth Gospel is based on a doctrine of the Logos which to all appearance is closely similar to that of Philo. …. every verse in the Prologue offers striking analogies to corresponding sayings of Philo. We have seen reason to believe that John had acquainted himself directly with the works of the Alexandrian thinker, and consciously derived from them.� - p. 154, The Fourth Gospel, Its purpose and Theology, E. F. Scott, D.D.
Philo “differentiates the Logos from God as his work or image [2 Cor. 4:4].� Philo’s Logos is also “first-born son [Ro. 8:29]....divine [a god - Jn 1:1] but not God, is with God [Jn 1:1], is light [Jn 1:4],...manna [Jn 6:31-51],...and shepherd [Jn 10:11].� - Encyclopaedia Britannica, p. 251, vol. 14, 1968. (Cf. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, vol. 8, p. 135.)
“Philo of course conceives of the Logos - which he occasionally calls divine (θεὸς) [literally, 'a god'], but never ‘God’ (� θεὸς) - as the highest angel and as the highest idea at the same time....� - p. 126, John 1, Haenchen, Fortress Press, 1984.
“The Logos which having been in the beginning, and with God, and divine [‘a god’], had entered human life and history as the Word ‘made flesh!’ .... But the identification of Jesus with the Logos was not tantamount to recognizing him as ‘God.’ Neither the ‘Word of God’ in Hebrew nomenclature nor the Logos in Greek speculation was ‘God’ though it was definitely ‘divine’ [‘a god’].� - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., vol. 13, p.25.
Last edited by tigger2 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
