clear challenges to the trinity doctrine

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (underlined emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Clear Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, how could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were? (This not only would not have been allowed, but the Jews would have stoned them to death.)
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" seems to me to be a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) seems to be a tragic error.

[2timothy316]

What exactly do you mean when you say "argue with scriptures"? I think you may have spelled exegesis wrong.

I don't remember using the word exegesis, but since your brought it up...Exegesis is the correct way to read the Bible, the trinity doctrine uses eisegesis, which is the wrong way to read the Bible.
To learn more, https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

Do you only have truths and no beliefs? Is there no way you might be wrong about anything?

Ah, you'll see I was careful in my word choice. If you read my post closely you'll see I said I only accept truth when it comes to who or what God is. Because the Bible says to live forever one must know God, thus knowing who God is has to be a truth and not a belief.

Do you believe the Bible to be 100% the Word of God? Or do other text outside the Bible have more authority than the Bible?

I don't know who Anathesia Creed is...

Ah then you might want to read up them. They are the ones that decreed that 3 are equal. They decided this 500 years after the death of the last Bible writer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

Do you think this creed's saying have the backing of God? If so, why aren't their writings part of the Bible Canon?

Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life whoever believes in Me will live even if he dies"

Yes he did and he is correct. Is this implying that Jesus is God? Not according to the Bible. 1 Cor 15:21 says, "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." Note, does it call Jesus God? No, it says through a man.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

He was talking to someone, yes that is for sure. But was God speaking to himself? No. Jesus was there. Millions of angels where there. Yet to assume God was referring to himself is using eisegesis. You stated that God refers to Himself in the plural form then went to find a scripture to support your claim. This type of Bible usage is very flawed and shouldn't be used.

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth...Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31

Who do you think this scripture is speaking of?

[AdHoc]

What exactly do you mean when you say "argue with scriptures"? I think you may have spelled exegesis wrong.

I don't remember using the word exegesis, but since your brought it up...Exegesis is the correct way to read the Bible, the trinity doctrine uses eisegesis, which is the wrong way to read the Bible.
To learn more, https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

Do you only have truths and no beliefs? Is there no way you might be wrong about anything?

Ah, you'll see I was careful in my word choice. If you read my post closely you'll see I said I only accept truth when it comes to who or what God is. Because the Bible says to live forever one must know God, thus knowing who God is has to be a truth and not a belief.

Do you believe the Bible to be 100% the Word of God? Or do other text outside the Bible have more authority than the Bible?

Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

I don't know who Anathesia Creed is...

Ah then you might want to read up them. They are the ones that decreed that 3 are equal. They decided this 500 years after the death of the last Bible writer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

Do you think this creed's saying have the backing of God? If so, why aren't their writings part of the Bible Canon?

I have no knowledge of or concern for that creed. I'm not a Catholic so I've only just been introduced to the information.

Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life whoever believes in Me will live even if he dies"

Yes he did and he is correct. Is this implying that Jesus is God? Not according to the Bible. 1 Cor 15:21 says, "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." Note, does it call Jesus God? No, it says through a man.

Paul says we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

He was talking to someone, yes that is for sure. But was God speaking to himself? No. Jesus was there. Millions of angels where there. Yet to assume God was referring to himself is using eisegesis. You stated that God refers to Himself in the plural form then went to find a scripture to support your claim. This type of Bible usage is very flawed and shouldn't be used.

Now i've got you arguing with the scriptures as well. We make a fine pair you and I.

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth...Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31

Who do you think this scripture is speaking of?

Wisdom personified.

Since I've answered your questions will you answer me and tell me who the Good Shepherd is?

Also I'm interested to know who the First and the Last is.

[2timothy316]

Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

I have no knowledge of or concern for that creed. I'm not a Catholic so I've only just been introduced to the information.

Though you're not Catholic, the trinity doctrine stems from that religion. They take full credit for it and they seem to take a lot of pride in establishing that doctrine. If you want to understand the truth of your doctrine better, perhaps you could learn more about it's origin.

Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life whoever believes in Me will live even if he dies"

Yes he did and he is correct. Is this implying that Jesus is God? Not according to the Bible. 1 Cor 15:21 says, "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." Note, does it call Jesus God? No, it says through a man.

Paul says we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.[/quote]
It seems you are choosing dark glasses. At the top of this post you said there is no other higher authority on earth than the Bible. Explain please what you mean. Are you saying that Paul might have been wrong because looking through a dark glass when he said, resurrection comes through a man? Do we believe that life comes through the death of a man or not?

Now i've got you arguing with the scriptures as well. We make a fine pair you and I.

I don't argue with scripture. I argue with teaching traditions. Scripture is always correct. How we read it is where the error occurs. Eisegesis or 'lead into' scripture is to put one's own ideals before reading what the scripture says. I person making a claim and then going to the Bible to justify themselves is terribly flawed. It should be the other way around.

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth...Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31

Who do you think this scripture is speaking of?

Wisdom personified.

The defintion of personified: "represented (a quality or concept) by a figure in human form." Wisdom is being personified by whom in Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31?

Since I've answered your questions will you answer me and tell me who the Good Shepherd is?

So much to read even sometimes I miss an answer. I answered this question in post 42.
viewtopic.php?p=925566#925566

Also I'm interested to know who the First and the Last is.

The Bible tells us the answer.

"This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me." - Isaiah 44:6.

"Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last." - Isaiah 48:12

[polonius]

2 Timothy posted:

AdHoc wrote:


Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

RESPONSE: And since the Bible was written by men, not God, “the many that do not� would be correct. Do you really believe that if the Bible was really written by God, it would contain so many contradictions and errors?

[101G]

2 Timothy posted:

AdHoc wrote:


Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

RESPONSE: And since the Bible was written by men, not God, “the many that do not� would be correct. Do you really believe that if the Bible was really written by God, it would contain so many contradictions and errors?

GINOLJC, not saying that you're right or wrong, but please post some of the contradictions you speak of.

thanks in advance.

[Bust Nak]

Moderator Intervention

Report recieved about the topic going off topic - please bear in mind this thread is about the Trinity as opposed to the truth of the Bible.

______________

Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.

[brianbbs67]

2 Timothy posted:

AdHoc wrote:


Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

RESPONSE: And since the Bible was written by men, not God, “the many that do not� would be correct. Do you really believe that if the Bible was really written by God, it would contain so many contradictions and errors?

GINOLJC, not saying that you're right or wrong, but please post some of the contradictions you speak of.

thanks in advance.

One more distraction from the topic...What is that acronym with which, you start each post?

[101G]

2 Timothy posted:

AdHoc wrote:


Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

RESPONSE: And since the Bible was written by men, not God, “the many that do not� would be correct. Do you really believe that if the Bible was really written by God, it would contain so many contradictions and errors?

GINOLJC, not saying that you're right or wrong, but please post some of the contradictions you speak of.

thanks in advance.

One more distraction from the topic...What is that acronym with which, you start each post?

GINOLJC is a Greeting acronym I use. as a christian we are to Greet one another.

Greeting In the Name Of the Lord Jesus Christ

No "t" because no more cross.

second, how is it a distraction from the topic when I was responding to your post?.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

[polonius]

GINOLJC,

not saying that you're right or wrong, but please post some of the contradictions you speak of.

RESPONSE:

Again, this might turn into a very long series of posts, so I'll limit myself to just three for the present.

1, Jesus born during the lifetime of Herod (d 4 B.C.)Matthew, or during the 6 AD Roman census of Syria conducted by Quirinius. (Luke),

2. Jesus sending for and riding two animals of different sizes into Jerusalem ("them" not "it") to fulfill a prophecy that he didn't understand(Matthew) or one animal in the usual manner.
(Mark, Luke, and John).

3. Jesus being crucified on Passover (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) or a day earlier on the Day of Preparation,(John)

and yet all scripture is "God breathed" hence inerrant.

[101G]

GINOLJC,

not saying that you're right or wrong, but please post some of the contradictions you speak of.

RESPONSE:

Again, this might turn into a very long series of posts, so I'll limit myself to just three for the present.

1, Jesus born during the lifetime of Herod (d 4 B.C.)Matthew, or during the 6 AD Roman census of Syria conducted by Quirinius. (Luke),

2. Jesus sending for and riding two animals of different sizes into Jerusalem ("them" not "it") to fulfill a prophecy that he didn't understand(Matthew) or one animal in the usual manner.
(Mark, Luke, and John).

3. Jesus being crucified on Passover (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) or a day earlier on the Day of Preparation,(John)

and yet all scripture is "God breathed" hence inerrant.

and thank you for your response, and question.

I have did research on these

#1, his first time in the jurisdiction of Syria, Quirinius was administrator which is rendered Governor also for he took the inventory, or as Luke said, taxes, or the assessment of the people. and then he became Governor of the LAND. to understand this scripture, verse 2 gives us the clue Luke 2:2 "(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) see it? "THIS TAXATION was when he was Govoner of the Land Syria, but the TAXATION he did before was when he was administrator, before he became Governor of the Land. just do your research. question 1 answered.

#2. ERROR on your Part. scripture, Zechariah 9:9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

now New testament, John 12:15 "Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt".

the Lord Jesus rode the colt.
colt here is a young ass, it's the term, G4454 πῶλος polos (p�'-los) n.
1. a “foal� or “filly.�
2. (specially) , a young ass.
[apparently a primary word]
KJV: colt

so the ass's colt was what the Lord rode.
John 12:14 "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written".

bingo, question answered.

#3. again ERROR on your part. the Lord Jesus was crucified the evening before a "SABBATH", scripture. Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath". which was, according to or weekly days, a Wednesday. do your research. there was two sabbath during this week. so Thursday they rested, and Friday was the preparation for Saturday, and they rested there also because sat was the sabbath. it was not until, according to our weekly calendar, that we know as Sunday did they come to the tomb. now when one start at Wed evening to Sat evening sundown, are three full days and three full nights. a day starts at sundown, not at sunrise.

Bingo, question #3, answered.

so there is no contradictions, but I'll love to hear the rest.

Peace in Christ Yeshua, JESUS.