John 5 23 - divinity claim?

[Wootah]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

The fact you honestly recognised there is a problem is exactly the issue.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

The fact you honestly recognised there is a problem is exactly the issue.

Actually, the issue is, as I see it, that a problem was mooted at all regarding the meaning and application of a word taken out of its full context.

Closer to home than you seem to think, perhaps.

Grace and peace to you.

[polonius]

[Replying to polonius]

Am I in the wrong sub forum? Isnt this one for assuming Bible and God? I honestly forget sometimes.

In any case it should be clear that this thread assumes God is true and the Bible is true.

Please respect that.

RESPONSE: Please read the first sentence in this form's guidance


"In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content."


Would that mean it required readers accept that Jesus was born twice? Both in or before 4 BC (Matthew)
AND during the 6 AD census (Luke).

It's "authoritative" in both cases. Just not historically accurate.

[onewithhim]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

I don't think that John was writing that Jesus was to be honored equally with the Father. I think it's a given that the Father, Jehovah (YHVH), is the Most High and will always remain so.

Paul wrote that Christ would eventually hand back the Kingdom to God, the Father, after all things have been subjected according to God's purpose.

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power....For God 'subjected all things under his feet.' But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth.15:24-28)

(See also Psalm 110:1.)

It is plain that the Son should be honored, but not an equal honoring with God.

[2timothy316]

New question: what does it mean if I honour my wife just as my dog?

What does the Bible say about the two?

How to treat my wife:
"You husbands, in the same way, continue dwelling with them according to knowledge. Assign them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered." - 1 Peter 3:7

"Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it." - Ephesians 5:25

How to treat animals under my care:
“The righteous one takes care of his domestic animals." - Proverbs 12:10

How Jehovah God feels for animals:
"Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city, in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong, as well as their many animals?� - Jonah 4:11

"Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge." - Matthew 10:29

“Six days you are to do your work; but on the seventh day, you are to cease from your labor, in order that your bull and your donkey may rest and the son of your slave girl and the foreign resident may refresh themselves." - Exodus 23:12

Answer:
To honor my wife as do my dog is to care for their needs. Do not treat them harshly or expect more from them that what is possible. Both are living beings and all life is precious to Jehovah. They are also gifts from Jehovah. God notices even the smallest life and is concerned how they are treated and cares for their well being. Honor them as the beautiful gifts they are.

Questions: Your question does beg another unsettling question, do you neglect the needs of your pets thereby dishonoring them? Are you perhaps confusing honor with love?

[2timothy316]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

I don't think that John was writing that Jesus was to be honored equally with the Father. I think it's a given that the Father, Jehovah (YHVH), is the Most High and will always remain so.

Paul wrote that Christ would eventually hand back the Kingdom to God, the Father, after all things have been subjected according to God's purpose.

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power....For God 'subjected all things under his feet.' But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth.15:24-28)

(See also Psalm 110:1.)

It is plain that the Son should be honored, but not an equal honoring with God.

It is important to note the context of the passage. If we read the scripture before verse 23 we read John 5:22, "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son."

While Jehovah is not honored equally with Jesus as beings, we can trust that Jesus' way judgment is equal to Jehovah's way of judgement. Thus we should honor Jesus as we would Jehovah in respect to our own judgement because judgement has been handed over to Jesus. Yet the scripture does not mean we honor Jesus the same as Jehovah in all aspects. This is why it's important to read scriptures in context.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

Does any being that is not God deserve to be honoured equally with God?

I see someone has been influenced by my argumentation for the Trinity, considering I have used this same scripture to argue for Jesus' Divinity countless times on here.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 6 by Wootah]

You showed contradiction in your own argument, and confirmed 2timothy's point. Both the gold medal winner and the silver medal winner are HONOURED.

[onewithhim]

Okay. Here's what I meant to say:

tigger2 wrote:

John 5:23 does not have to mean that the honor given to the Son has to be exactly equal in quantity and quality as that given to the Father.

Yes, it does. in John 5:18, it says this:

Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

As always, it's important to read verses in context. It's verse 18 that shows us that verse 23 is talking about equality between God the Father and God the Son. It tells us that the Pharisees understood Jesus to be equating himself with God. In historical-grammatical hermeneutics, understanding how the first audience understood these things is all-important for our own understanding of Scripture today.

Then look at verse 23:

It says that "all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father."

The Greek word translated as "just as" is καθώς (transliterated "kathos"). It can mean "properly", "in proportion to" AND "just as (in direct proportion), corresponding to fully (exactly)." See here:

https://biblehub.com/greek/2531.htm

So it does mean the Son should be honored exactly as the Father is honored. Even your own bogus New World Translation translates it as "just as" meaning "exactly". See here:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... ks/john/5/

So, as Wootah rightly noted, if Jesus himself said he is to be honored just as the Father is, that means he's putting himself on the exact same level as God which means he is either committing blasphemy (and no one should follow him) or he really is God just as much as his Father is (and he should be believed and worshipped as such).

If one reads the entire chapter, one can readily see that Jesus DID NOT "make himself equal with God." The Pharisees were claiming that he was doing so, but they were in error. They either misunderstood him OR they were deliberately lying. What do you really think---were the Jews telling the truth? Were they telling the truth when they accused him of being possessed by a demon? (John 8:48,52)

If you say "no," then why do you believe them when they said that Jesus was "making himself equal to God"??

He DISPUTED that idea at John 10:34-36. Do you understand what he was saying there? It wasn't that they were right.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jesus said: John 5 23: that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father.

You're taking this scripture out of context. You're actually starting in the middle of a sentence when you quote only verse 23.

John 5:22 and 23 says, "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

Because Jehovah judges no one people are to honor His Son just as the Father on the matter of judgment. It doesn't mean they are equals.

Scripture must be taken in context.

It gets worse for you not better: What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?

Since you are now changing the subject, I take it you understand now that John 5:23 is not making Jehovah equal with His Son.

Oh come on ... I went where you led. Just answer the question.

What sort of righteous fair God of justice that knows and sees all gives judgement to a son that does not know and see all?

Does Jesus know all and see all?

Only when Jehovah GIVES him the ability to do so. He will obviously have power to judge when Jehovah tells him to start judging.

"About Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and POWER, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:38)


Clearly, Jesus got his power from God, the Father (YHWH), so we can be confident that Jesus will be given power to judge righteously when the time comes.

(Please read Isaiah 11:1-9.)