? A Question For All Former Christians Who Fell Away ?

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

I just read where Muslims are converting to Christianity in large numbers.

The tide rises and falls quickly in Africa. In Africa people will often gladly be whatever religion the group who feeds them sufficiently wants them to be. And Muslim groups like the Janjaweed have certainly gotten a fearsome reputation for visiting extreme violence on defenseless people. The bad reputation is well deserved, I might add.

It seems to me somebody was posing as the angel Gabriel when Muhammad was told to reject Christ Jesus as the crucified and risen Savior. And the condition of the Christian Church at that time was less than ideal so it was easy to accept as truth.

That would mean that the entire religion of Islam is based on a lie, and that billions of devoted Muslims over the centuries, alive and dead, were and are completely and entirely mistaken concerning their religious faith and their most fundamental beliefs. Are you suggesting that it is possible for truly vast numbers of believers to be completely devoted to what they are absolutely certain is the one real truth, only to be completely and utterly MISTAKEN, and not even be aware of it? Shocking! That would mean that the holy text's that they have been relying on and quoting from as unassailable fact are in reality nothing but meaningless nonsense. Everything that they have been taught from birth concerning their view of reality and the meaning of life is in reality totally false, and every teacher that they put their absolute trust in their entire lives, right down to and including their own parents, were simply DEAD WRONG, and were themselves completely and utterly deluded. Boy, aren't YOU the lucky one, secure in the unassailable knowledge that your own belief system is the one true belief, and that YOU are not numbered among the devout but totally deceived masses like those other billions of poor deluded fools! The poor things are completely disconnected from reality and they don't even know it.

[KenRU]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

I was brought up Catholic, I never choose to be one. I'd wager that's true for a vast majority of people.

A desire to learn about science and the origins of life, coupled with common sense quickly erased any hold religion had on me.

All the best,

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.
Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

I was brought up Catholic, I never choose to be one. I'd wager that's true for a vast majority of people.

I think I agree. Without a personal commitment and some kind of a "born-again" experience how could a person honestly declare themselves a "Christian Believer"? That would just be lip service.

A desire to learn about science and the origins of life, coupled with common sense quickly erased any hold religion had on me.

"Common sense" is too limiting. But science and Christianity can be a good mix. I consider Jesus Christ the Science of everlasting life. He is the King of metaphysics, my favorite science. I am inspired by His declaration.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

All the best,

Thank you. Same to you.

[Divine Insight]

I think I agree. Without a personal commitment and some kind of a "born-again" experience how could a person honestly declare themselves a "Christian Believer"? That would just be lip service.

The problem with this YahDough is that what would such a Christian actually be believing in?

If they are believing in what you have described then all they are doing is believing in superstitious myths.

In fact, my original "belief" in Christianity is precisely as you describe. I was "born again" in Christ with a personal commitment to God.

So according to you I was indeed a "Christian Believer" precisely by your criteria.

Ironically it was my "True and Honest" Christian belief that caused me to want to become a preacher and spread the Gospel and God's word to the rest of mankind. It was even apparent to me that the pastors without our own Christian denomination were in disagreement with each other and therefore confused over God's Word.

So with this "Honest" Christian commitment and dedication that you describe I set out to understand "God's Word" so that I could help everyone else understand it and put an end to all the confusion.

That's when I started to study the Bible with dedication.

But realize this. That based on YOUR CRITERIA I was already a devout, true and honest Christian. I already believed in Jesus and was born again precisely as you require.

It wasn't until I actually read the Bible and studied it in depth that I came to the realization that the Bible cannot possibly be true. Nor could it be the word of any God. Only then did I realize that my dedication to Jesus as "The Christ" was based on nothing more than totally false superstitious fairytales that cannot possibly be true.

Intelligence and common sense revealed the fallacy of the Christian cult. Even though my parents, clergy, and the entire congregation of our Church had fallen for these superstitious myths, it became clear to me that they had all been duped.

So ironically, your definition of a "True Believer" is really based upon the total ignorance of the believers.

This would be the very same as you saying that a "True Believer" of Santa Claus is a person who simply believes in Santa with all of their heart, mind and soul and refuses to consider any evidence that it might actually reveal that this is nothing more than a make-believe myth.

What you are basically "preaching" without any evidence or rational reasoning behind it, is that "True Believers" are simply those who cling to a fairytale at all cost whilst flatly refusing to even acknowledge the evidence against it.

~~~~~

The real question is this, "Was I a true believer in the Bible when I was a Christian?"

And the answer is no, I most certainly wasn't because at that point in time I had no clue what was actually in the Bible. All I knew about at that time were verses that has been spoon-fed to me by people who were trying to promote the biblical picture. Probably people like you, people who believe that a belief and commitment to Santa Claus (or Jesus) is all that is required to make the fairytale true.

But that's not even remotely true.

It wasn't until I actually read and studied the Bible before I could even say whether or not I actually believe what the Book has to say. And my conclusions after having read and studied it is, NO, I don't believe that any of it came from any God. On the contrary, IMHO any God who would behave the way the God of the Bible is portrayed as behaving would not only be stupid, but he wouldn't be worthy of anyone worship.

So now I know that the religion is false because I took my head out of the "Sand". Instead of just pretending that believing in Jesus makes Jesus true, I looked into the stories that claim Jesus was the demigod son of Yahweh and found them to be clearly false. And certainly not any inspired actions or directives from any all-wise or intelligent God.

The Bible is fake YahDough, just like the stories of Santa Claus. You can believe in Santa Claus to your heart's content, that doesn't make Santa Claus real.

The real question is not whether you believe in Jesus. The real question is whether or not you believe the entirety of the mythological canon of tales that ends up proclaiming that Jesus is the demigod Son of Yahweh in ONE of it's many different historical endings.

[YahDough]

I think I agree. Without a personal commitment and some kind of a "born-again" experience how could a person honestly declare themselves a "Christian Believer"? That would just be lip service.

The problem with this YahDough is that what would such a Christian actually be believing in?

Jesus Christ. Believing as in Trusting and Jesus Christ as in Son of God. The rest of the "equation" are the discernible details.

The real question is not whether you believe in Jesus.

Actually that IS the "real question". It doesn't matter what you do or don't accept regarding the Bible if you don't believe (trust) in Jesus.

The real question is whether or not you believe the entirety of the mythological canon of tales that ends up proclaiming that Jesus is the demigod Son of Yahweh in ONE of it's many different historical endings.

While I do believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD (Yahweh) I don't believe in the entirety of the Bible canon. Is that why you quit believing in Jesus? Because of what everybody else was saying?

[Divine Insight]

The problem with this YahDough is that what would such a Christian actually be believing in?

Jesus Christ. Believing as in Trusting and Jesus Christ as in Son of God. The rest of the "equation" are the discernible details.

But how is that any different from believing in Santa Claus?

Are you saying that if someone no longer believes in Santa Claus, then it's not possibly that they ever believed in Santa Claus? Are you saying that earlier in their life when they actually believed in Santa Claus as a young child it was just "lip service"?

To begin with Christ is not Jesus' last name. In fact, it's really meaningless to speak of Jesus Christ. What people should be saying is Jesus "THE" Christ. And this requires that they actually understand what it even means to be the "Christ".

So they have to believe in that fairytale too. Not just Jesus.

The real question is not whether you believe in Jesus.

Actually that IS the "real question". It doesn't matter what you do or don't accept regarding the Bible if you don't believe (trust) in Jesus.

Before you can place your "trust" in Jesus you have to have some understanding of just what it is you think you are placing your trust in.

This is like saying that a child doesn't truly believe in Santa Claus unless they place their (trust) in Santa Claus. And young children probably do just that. But they can then later still recognize that there never was a Santa Claus to "trust" in the first place.

The real question is whether or not you believe the entirety of the mythological canon of tales that ends up proclaiming that Jesus is the demigod Son of Yahweh in ONE of it's many different historical endings.

While I do believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD (Yahweh) I don't believe in the entirety of the Bible canon. Is that why you quit believing in Jesus? Because of what everybody else was saying?

Not because of what someone else was saying YahDough. I no longer believe in Jesus as the demigod Son of Yahweh, because I have come to the realization that Yahweh himself was nothing more than a myth. A really bad myth at that.

Why would I continue to believe in Jesus as the demigod son of a fictitious God character that I can clearly see was false?

That makes no sense.

You're not making any sense.

If you believe that Jesus was the demigod son of the God of the Old Testament, then surely you must believe a lot of the Old Testament as well.

I don't believe in the original story of the Fall from Grace in the garden of Eden. I see no reason to believe that.

I don't believe in a God who commanded men to stone each other for their sins. I see no reason to believe that.

I don't believe in a God who commanded men to stone heathen or unbelievers to death, or to kill men who taught of other Gods, etc.

I don't believe in a God who told men to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins.

Why should I believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God given by God to offer salvation to men, when I don't even believe the whole of the Old Testament to begin with.

Jesus cannot be the centerfold of Christianity.

Before it even makes any sense to believe in Jesus as your "savior" you must first believe that there is an angry jealous God who is out to condemn you.

So you must necessarily believe in Yahweh FIRST. And you must have FAITH, and TRUST that Yahweh is out to condemn you and will be jealous and angry with you if you don't do everything the authors of the Old Testament told you to do.

Placing Jesus as the focal point of Christianity makes no sense. In fact, that realization alone should be enough to make you realized just how extremely problematic the religion is. Especially from the point of view that you are "preaching": That believing in Jesus is the ultimate essence of Christianity.

It most certainly is not, and cannot be.

It makes no sense to believe in Jesus if you don't first believe in Yahweh.

It makes no sense to believe that Jesus can "save" you unless you first believe that Yahweh is out to condemn you.

Jesus as the "Savior" only makes sense if you FIRST believe that God is out to condemn you. So that has to be your primary belief before Jesus can even begin to make any sense at all.

So Jesus cannot be the focal point of Christianity.

The focal point of Christianity necessarily has to be a belief that God is out to condemn you.

Without that, Jesus makes no sense.

[KenRU]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.
Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

I was brought up Catholic, I never choose to be one. I'd wager that's true for a vast majority of people.

I think I agree. Without a personal commitment and some kind of a "born-again" experience how could a person honestly declare themselves a "Christian Believer"? That would just be lip service.

That isn’t accurate. I know many who were born into the faith and are absolutely true believers. One studied to be in the seminary, and while he never did become a priest, he is without a doubt fully Christian.

So, while I do believe many do just pay “lip service�, I also believe many are sold hook, line and sinker on the faith itself.

A desire to learn about science and the origins of life, coupled with common sense quickly erased any hold religion had on me.

"Common sense" is too limiting.

How so? It applies to a wide array of claims religions make that are simply and patently false. Such as: miracles, historical inaccuracies and blatant contradictions within the holy texts that require circus like gymnastics of logic just to make sense of them.

Why would religion suddenly be exempt from the use of common sense?

But science and Christianity can be a good mix. I consider Jesus Christ the Science of everlasting life. He is the King of metaphysics, my favorite science. I am inspired by His declaration.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

This isn’t science, by any stretch of the imagination. The only substantiation religion can ever offer is faith. Science has facts and evidence. Without facts and evidence and only faith to support its claims, all religions are equal. And, without evidence or facts, as far as I’m concerned they are all equally false.

[YahDough]

The problem with this YahDough is that what would such a Christian actually be believing in?

Jesus Christ. Believing as in Trusting and Jesus Christ as in Son of God. The rest of the "equation" are the discernible details.

But how is that any different from believing in Santa Claus?

Jesus gives better gifts for believing in Him. .

Are you saying that if someone no longer believes in Santa Claus, then it's not possibly that they ever believed in Santa Claus? Are you saying that earlier in their life when they actually believed in Santa Claus as a young child it was just "lip service"?

Santa Claus is fictional folklore, DI. Can you handle that? So is the Easter Bunny. Sheesh. Did you let the fantasy of Santa crowd out the reality of Christ Jesus?

To begin with Christ is not Jesus' last name.

It's more likely His first name. ("Christ Jesus" 58 verser)

In fact, it's really meaningless to speak of Jesus Christ.

Meaningless to you, you mean. To some people it's a good swear word.

It's kind of like Simon Peter, DI. We don't want to mix this Jesus with some imposter Jesus.
I suppose now you will tell me His middle initial isn't H. (Halleluyah)

The real question is not whether you believe in Jesus.

Actually that IS the "real question". It doesn't matter what you do or don't accept regarding the Bible if you don't believe (trust) in Jesus.

Before you can place your "trust" in Jesus you have to have some understanding of just what it is you think you are placing your trust in.

That's the wonderful thing about Jesus. He can be trusted regardless of how much one knows about Him.

The real question is whether or not you believe the entirety of the mythological canon of tales that ends up proclaiming that Jesus is the demigod Son of Yahweh in ONE of it's many different historical endings.

While I do believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD (Yahweh) I don't believe in the entirety of the Bible canon. Is that why you quit believing in Jesus? Because of what everybody else was saying?

Why should I believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God given by God to offer salvation to men, when I don't even believe the whole of the Old Testament to begin with.

For the gift of everlasting life and peace with God for starters.

Jesus cannot be the centerfold of Christianity.

He is more than that. He is the "centerfold" of everything that pertains to life.

Before it even makes any sense to believe in Jesus as your "savior" you must first believe that there is an angry jealous God who is out to condemn you.

If God were out to "condemn" everybody, He would not have sent Jesus to be the "Savior" of His Creation.

So you must necessarily believe in Yahweh FIRST. And you must have FAITH, and TRUST that Yahweh is out to condemn you and will be jealous and angry with you if you don't do everything the authors of the Old Testament told you to do.

That certainly would be an incentive to repent and believe in the man who Yahweh sent to redeem men away from His jealousy and anger. Wouldn't you say?

It makes no sense to believe in Jesus if you don't first believe in Yahweh.

Agreed. Jesus even said:
Jn:14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jesus as the "Savior" only makes sense if you FIRST believe that God is out to condemn you. So that has to be your primary belief before Jesus can even begin to make any sense at all.

I would put that differently and say God is out to save us through Christ Jesus.

So Jesus cannot be the focal point of Christianity.

Well the Father sent Him but it was Christ Jesus who came.

The focal point of Christianity necessarily has to be a belief that God is out to condemn you.

Or save us depending on where we stand .

[Divine Insight]

That's the wonderful thing about Jesus. He can be trusted regardless of how much one knows about Him.

That's the wonderful thing about all imaginary friends. You can imagine anything that suits your fantasy about them. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity, they have all invented their own little Jesus in whom they place their trust. And poor little Jesus has to fulfill all their fantasies lest he would fail to have been worthy of their trust.

[OnceConvinced]

That's the wonderful thing about Jesus. He can be trusted regardless of how much one knows about Him.

I trusted in Jesus for over 30 years of my life believing him to be the one and only God. Believing he'd died for my sins and saved me. Believing I was hearing from him and being guided by him.

According to many Christians now, I was mistaken and I wasn't really a true Christian at all. Although no Christians ever told me that WHILE I was a Christian - in fact the opposite. That means I lived my life following a false version of Jesus, maybe even the devil himself. If this is the case then Jesus has clearly let me down big time, allowing me to be misled for many many years without making any ounce of effort to steer me in the right direction. Even though I genuinely believed I was following him, he made no efforts what so all to put me right. If these Christians are correct then one can hardly claim Jesus to be trustworthy.