Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[99percentatheism]

Joab

[Replying to post 104 by Joab]

Just bolden the mentions of angels in those passages and you will have proved your point.

I have presented the scriptures that proved my point.

It needs noting that you have not been able to offer even one word celebrating, affirming or supporting homosexuality anywhere in the Bible.

Of course.

Now let's get back to the OP please, where it is incredibly inapprpriate to force "Mainstream Christianity" to accept homosexuality. Since we have someone on your side that has presented many, many kinds of religious organizations that do celebrate homosexuality, there is no reason or need to force gay culture on The Church. Actually, it seems rather odd that "bullying" is such an important topic to the gay agenda and yet totally ignored when it comes to using it to force Christians to accept a behavior that is sinful and repugnant to them. Ever notice you never hear about gay activists acting out in a Mosque or Hindu Temple or Ashram?

Now lets see how honest you are being here.

You have not provided any scripture prove that angels became men.

Try reading my posts. You are wrong. And I am restraining myself from stronger language out of a semblance of respect.

You are not a member of mainstream christianity, unless you are Catholic, so are in no position to ascertain whether or not they are being forced to CELEBRATE homosexuality.

Catholics are indeed being forced to celebrate homosexuality. Ever heard of the Sisters of Indulgence? I'm betting you haven't.

From your posts it is patently obvious that you don't even understand what homosexuality is.

I have massive numbers of posts that say otherwise. Actaully it's basic.

You claim that your holy book declares the immutability of marriage being between Man and Woman, even though your holy book states emphatically that Angels married Women.

Jesus gave good advice about returning to what is regurgitated. I'll folow that advice here and now.

You seem to think that an acceptance of homosexuality (something you don't understand) will force you to become homosexual.

You don't understand seduction and debauchery.

A ridiculous notion if there ever was one.

It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone would declare that I don't know the homosexual agenda. Theonly bummer is, if I post pictures of it I'd get banned here.

You have fabricated some bogeyman gay agenda that apparently scares the pants off you from a movement attempting to achieve equality.

You have lost this debate going to that tactic. Your playbook will probably invoke the self-loathung gay guy routine sooner or later I'm sure. Or of course the two wrongs make a right ploy? In the legal community we call it the Snickers defense. It doesn't work. It only is a declaration of wrongdoing.

And since I know you'll ask. . .: The Snickers Defense is where two kids are caught stealing a Snickers bar in a store but one of them is cunning enough to toss his aside when security appraoches. The one that is still in possesion of his ill-gotten goods, says "Hey, he stole one too.!" Which of course convicts the one kid completely and the other gets off to steal another day. Both are dishonest of course.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not even tens of thousands of wrongs marching in a parade.

And please, don't ask me to prove if Snickers candy bars exist.

If you believe equality is anti christian then perhaps christianity (or your flavour of it) is WRONG.

LGBT Political propaganda exists outside of The Church. You can promote that propaganda out where it fits. It doesn't fit in the faith delivered only once to the saints. You know "Mainstream Christianity."

Why not ply your gay trade in one of thise gay affirming religious organizations?

Not the real Church eh???? Is that what you're saying?

[Joab]

[Replying to post 110 by 99percentatheism]

But as I've already told you, you are not a member of mainstream christianity if you are not Catholic. Check the numbers.

I'm sure your little snickers story goes over really well with the yokels. What the

You will desist from your erroneous immutably man/woman marriage garbage won't you? Now that you've been proven wrong by your very own god? Thanks.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to Joab]

I dismantled your positions. Just bow out and avoid more attention to your weak positions.

I notice that you have utterly given up attempts of the Bible affirming gay anything. You are now left with having to justify the tyranny of forcing Christians to have to violate the honesty inherent in holding to a decidedly and appropriate position that homosexuality is not supportable via Christian truth.

[KCKID]

[Replying to Joab]

I dismantled your positions. Just bow out and avoid more attention to your weak positions.

Wow. What an about-face. It was only a few posts back you claimed that Joab was on fire!

I notice that you have utterly given up attempts of the Bible affirming gay anything. You are now left with having to justify the tyranny of forcing Christians to have to violate the honesty inherent in holding to a decidedly and appropriate position that homosexuality is not supportable via Christian truth.

As I have said many times, 99percent, as far as I'm aware the Bible says nothing about 'gay anything'. However, as I've also said as many times, "So what?" A gay person is not going to turn straight - nor should be expected to do so - simply because the Bible doesn't acknowledge their existence. You appear to have no concept that the Bible was written by authors who had no inkling about the majority of things that we know about today. Human sexuality is most complex and it stands to reason that the Bible authors would have been in total ignorance of the subject. Why is this so hard for you to acknowledge? "God", if we're to believe that He was responsible for having inspired the Bible writers, appears to share the very same ignorance of its authors. Are you so afraid of God that you might appear to be offending Him if you admit that the Bible is not infallible? Where does the Bible even state that it's the infallible word of God?

None of us live our lives according to the precise letter of the Bible, I don't, you don't, no one does. The message that we DO get from the NT (Jesus) is a very simple one, however, and one that CAN be applied to we of today. It's to love your neighbor as yourself. It is NOT to stand in judgment of them and to condemn them ("Neither do I condemn you," ...remember?) but to love them 'as is', as difficult as that might be to do at times. It's not your task to change people to accept your way of thinking, your beliefs. If there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit, as per the Bible, then it's the job of the HS to do the changing in people who ask for a change. It's your job to make sure that you apply to your life that Gospel message that you flaunt here so regularly. Do you apply the Gospel message to your life? Or, like those you consistently point the finger at, do you often fall short of the mark??

[99percentatheism]

@KCKID

[Replying to Joab]

I dismantled your positions. Just bow out and avoid more attention to your weak positions.

Wow. What an about-face. It was only a few posts back you claimed that Joab was on fire!

For awhile. Then he went to mudslinging ("I'm sure your little snickers story goes over really well with the yokels.") and had to be dealt with directly. I was still accurate and honest though. Have you forgotten my Christian marriage thread so soon?

I still like his efforts though. Very spirited and concise for the most part.

And I don't even interact with Betty and Steve Yokels. They're Universalists. And they have one of those mean dogs they don't keep on a leash.

I notice that you have utterly given up attempts of the Bible affirming gay anything. You are now left with having to justify the tyranny of forcing Christians to have to violate the honesty inherent in holding to a decidedly and appropriate position that homosexuality is not supportable via Christian truth.

As I have said many times, 99percent, as far as I'm aware the Bible says nothing about 'gay anything'. However, as I've also said as many times, "So what?"

What it does say is in the negative. A 20th century neologism and 21st centiry poltical propaganda does not change what sin is.

A gay person is not going to turn straight - nor should be expected to do so - simply because the Bible doesn't acknowledge their existence.

Oh it acknowledges their existence quite definitively.

You appear to have no concept that the Bible was written by authors who had no inkling about the majority of things that we know about today.

God needs to go to a 21st gay bar to learn what's up? I don't think so.

Human sexuality is most complex and it stands to reason that the Bible authors would have been in total ignorance of the subject.

Just because the Bible doesn't read word for word like Penthouse Variations or the directions to Rent Boys in ex-Soviet Union countries is not the same as the Bible being inspired by an ignorant Almighty God that needs Gay Pride to teach Him about 21st century sexual techniques. Anatomy and biology hasn't changed in just 6000-years KCKID.

Why is this so hard for you to acknowledge?

The Church does not bow to gay pride. It is other-worldy.

"God", if we're to believe that He was responsible for having inspired the Bible writers, appears to share the very same ignorance of its authors.

Are you claiming that the rectums and vaginas of bronze age and Roman citizens were somehow diferent than today's human beings?

Are you so afraid of God that you might appear to be offending Him if you admit that the Bible is not infallible?

I'm obvioulsy not afraid to debate gay behavior being plied in The Church.

Where does the Bible even state that it's the infallible word of God?

You tell me. Why do you want to force queer theory into the Bible? Where does the Bible say that pop culture and homosexuals can alter "the faith delivered only once to the Saints?"

None of us live our lives according to the precise letter of the Bible, I don't, you don't, no one does.

Hundreds of million wrongs don't make a right either. I don't sell out God because i am a sinner. And I don't invent congenital excuses for my sinning.

The message that we DO get from the NT (Jesus) is a very simple one, however, and one that CAN be applied to we of today. It's to love your neighbor as yourself.

Love is not anywhere in celebrating sinners and sin. Not according to the Gospel. In fact, it is a greater sin to encourage people to sin. Even under a rainbow flag.

It is NOT to stand in judgment of them and to condemn them ("Neither do I condemn you," ...remember?) but to love them 'as is', as difficult as that might be to do at times.

"Go, and sin no more." You conveniently left that part out.

It's not your task to change people to accept your way of thinking, your beliefs.

But then why do you demand to be able to do it?

If there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit, as per the Bible, then it's the job of the HS to do the changing in people who ask for a change.

I'm not going to debate the Holy Spirit anywhere near this subject matter. And certainly not with a person that has made the comments about the Bible as you have.

It's your job to make sure that you apply to your life that Gospel message that you flaunt here so regularly.

That means not supporting sin and sinners. Encouraging people to continue to sin is a worse sin according to Jesus.

But why should I bother bringing up anything in a Bible that you seem to demand can change with any pop culture or attitudes of some odd group?

Do you apply the Gospel message to your life?

Which one? The one that you demand has to change with whatever fad comes along or the one delivered only once to the saints?

Or, like those you consistently point the finger at, do you often fall short of the mark??

If I were to apply your theology and morality, than the answer is no.

I can never do anything wrong as long as I feel and demand that I have a pre-birth orientation that makes me dseire the behavior I engage in. I can do whatever I like to "as long as I am a consentong adult" and you have to affirm my behavior.

Does that also have to be accepted by Mainstream Christianity?

No it doesn't.

Now apply that to the gay agenda.

[Joab]

Let's see if you can answer now. You've already made the boast so probably not.

Is this the quote you claim proves that angels became men?

Do show me where it says anything even remotely like that, in fact show me the word angel.

99percentatheism wrote:


From the Tanakh, Bereshit (Genesis) 18:

Quote:
1 And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,

3 and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.

4 Let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and recline yourselves under the tree.

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and stay ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on; forasmuch as ye are come to your servant.' And they said: 'So do, as thou hast said.'

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said: 'Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.'

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hastened to dress it.

8 And he took curd, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

[KCKID]

"Go, and sin no more." You conveniently left that part out.

Not to be rude, but I've snipped the rest of your post, 99percent, for the sole reason that it's too lengthy to respond to in full. Not to mention that the typical dialog between you and I pretty well resembles a game of forum ping pong.

Previously I have asked you politely not to post the above "Go, and sin no more" text because it highlights hypocrisy and I don't want you to lose face with the readers any more than you need to. I'm just watching out for you.

People can only legitimately use that text when THEY have reached a point in their lives where THEY "sin no more." I'm pretty sure that you have not acquired perfection yet so you can't legitimately aim that text at anyone else. See where the hypocrite part comes in when you do?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to KCKID]

So are claiming that a person convicted of burglary cannot testify that he witnessed a hit and run?

[livingwordlabels]

This is my opinion - hope it is useful in some way even if you disagree with my points:

1. The gospel is for anyone and everyone - Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender, adulterers, those who have sex outside marriage, anyone who has ever sinned.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Hence a LGBT person can be a Christian if they want to - just like anyone else

2. However God is holy and we need to be holy too.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." Therefore if we choose to follow after God we need to do what is right and stop doing those things which displease God.

3. Homosexuality, among many other things, displeases God.

1 Corin 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Note it says that is what some of you were. In other words, a Christian would stop doing what is wrong.

4. If we don't want to change then this indicates either: i. we do not see what we are doing displeases God; or ii. we don't want to follow after God or alternatively only want to follow Him half-heartedly.

5. Why should churches not allow LGBT people to be part of their church? - Because if they did, the church would have to condone something the Bible says is sinful.
As people have already pointed out, many Christians sin - eg pornography, adultery, unfaithfulness etc. If they recognise they have erred they can be forgiven. But, if they argue that say adultery is not sinful and they see no problem in people practising it, then they would have to leave the church too. Churches that condones sin give witness that God is not bothered about sin. They imply God is not holy.

6. Therefore it is entirely logical for churches not to allow LGBT to become members. It is a mistake to always assume it is based on some irrational hatred or prejudice.

7. Having said this, I agree with the OP that sometimes there is hatred and prejudice towards LGBT people. Churches don't always act rationally or righteously.

8. I also accept that along with society in general, Christians (myself included) are having to engage with this issue and at times having to change wrong attitudes.

9. In my opinion, some of the best Christians going are people with homosexual feelings and who continue to resist the feelings as hard as they can because they believe it is right not to give in to them. They pay a considerable personal cost for being a Christian.

10. Will mainstream Christianity ever accept gay people? - I don't know.

[Joab]

This is for you 99percent.

Let's see if you can answer now. You've already made the boast so probably not.

Is this the quote you claim proves that angels became men?

Do show me where it says anything even remotely like that, in fact show me the word angel.

99percentatheism wrote:


From the Tanakh, Bereshit (Genesis) 18:

Quote:
1 And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth,

3 and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.

4 Let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and recline yourselves under the tree.

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and stay ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on; forasmuch as ye are come to your servant.' And they said: 'So do, as thou hast said.'

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said: 'Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.'

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hastened to dress it.

8 And he took curd, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

[/quote]