Sodom, Greece, Rome and homosexuality.

[AlAyeti]

Does allowing for diversity include parents having no voice in what their children are forced to be taught and have to accept?

Do Christians and the many other cultures and belief systems opposed to homosexuality have the right to have their culture and religious views respected in society when it comes to decent and natural sexual behavior in the education system and in public?

Are homosexuals demanding accesss to children under the label of diversity and anti-hate legislation?

This seems the number one issue between average and normal "family" people and the homosexual agenda.

Can there be laws passed that keeps homosexuality from becoming forced on children and families that oppose it, without the homosexual community and homosexual action organizations crying discrimination?

Is there such a thing anymore as heterosexual rights?

[melikio]

I repent that I ever lived of life of sexual licentiousness. That thought never leaves my mind. I supported and encouraged this pure evil and insanity that is being embraced by the Gay Agenda and the world of "Scrotum" and others. I repent, I repent, I repent. As long is their is breath within me I repent. It is time to live the meaning of that word Melikio.

It is time to live the meaning of that word.

It is still time for YOU to live what you believe; not tell others how to live.

Yours words mean little to me, 1John.

Just live your life, and leave others to themselves; you shouldn't be allowed to define the morals of others. In the case of crimes/victims, my view changes substantially, but other than that you should live your "religious" values and relegate yourself to setting an example.

When you say "repent", it means nothing to me because you are just making a statement. You haven't proven that you've "repented", so that doesn't matter here. What does matter it that you cannot direct what every person seeking and/or engaging in concentual sex should do in this life. You can apply that "religion" by faith to your own life, but you are rightly opposed by most anyone, when you attempt apply controls to the lives of others based upon your "religion".

Either the person adheres to your values, or they do not. You might pray to God on their behalf (that is fine); but this (basically stupid and offensive) PUSHING of your religion upon anyone but YOURSELF, is something that I believe needs to be challenged. And certainly not just "Christians" should see that "challenge" (not attack), but any group that has a mindset which seeks to control other human beings.

Homosexuals and homosexuality aren't going anywhere. And homosexuals aren't going to stand there as stationary targets for just any religious person to assail them. They may be marginalized yet for quite some time, but things will change. Not that I'm seeking anything radically PRO-gay, but that I (and likely most others) will diligently seek protection from people like yourself.

Repent, indeed; but don't PUSH others to do the same... that certainly isn't YOUR place where another's sexuality is involved. You can believe what you want 1John, but unless you and yours manage to hijack the entire U.S. Constitution sometime very soon, your approach to these matters can/will be "challenged". I don't advocate nor except "criminalization of Christianity" (as you tend to CRY WOLF about), but I do see traditions along with social perceptions changing over time.

1John, there is a LOT that you could repent of here, and if you think that just because you claim follow the Bible, or have decided to adhere to certain beliefs, that other SHOULD follow; then you just aren't very realistic. And maybe God is coming to BEAT UP everyone you and yours disagree with, maybe. But I'll bet ya' dollars-to-doughnuts, that you won't be found "fautless" (particularly about some of the things you've said here). Repent? Sure. But certainly not because YOU have judged me through YOUR selective religious grid.

Homosexuality and homosexuals are hardly handled in a helpful way by most Christians. That can be seen easily. And I admit that the human relationships between all people can be strained by any number of things; but that is what love is for, to bring people to where Jesus certainly was as a person (and God in the flesh). It's not about what you can dictate so forcefully as to IMPOSE your values upon others, but it's about offering something that promotes liberty, freedom and life.

So, no matter what you think, none (whether right-leaning Christians, or socialistic-gay atheists) are going to allow their basic human rights or freedoms to be diminished or trampled, just because someone SAYS they should be.

If we honored every "religion" and it's rules by LAW (as you tend to imply we should), what would this world look like? Do you prefer what's happening in the middle east now, or do you prefer the kind of corruption and oppressiveness which has led to more wars than people can ever list from memory?

You aren't going to control or eliminate homosexual people from the face of this planet, no more than unattractive people will be eliminated. In either case, the state of both is just a matter of fact... still, it doesn't warrant the mistreatment or dehumanization of either (which does happen). Gay people aren't out to hijack Christianity, but if you have managed to convince yourself of that, so be it; I can't seek to change that, anymore than I can change the shape of the planet.

Love is the real key, to everything that ails mankind. That is my primary religious view of things; it's flexible and adjustable, but it doesn't tend toward extremes (with the exception of violent behavior/crime). I have NO qualms about stopping a violent person DEAD in their tracks, to protect the well-being of those who are truly defenseless; victims are the key concept there.

Other than that, let all men work out their own consciences before God or fate. Stop seeking to control the hearts, minds or souls of other people, 1John. It's one thing to step on someone's toes in the usual course of human interaction, but it is another thing to assume that you have the authority to steer their wills to where YOU believe they should be. And that is the mistake of many who are religious in this world.

The "religion" tends to take on the "personality" of he who wields it. I've seen that countless times. And no matter how much talk of "standards" is submitted, I see this "customization" of religion at every turn. I believe Jesus was fully aware of this, and through love pointed to a more universal access to that which many legalists would deny other human beings. He knew about homosexuality and the rest; He addressed everything from the Cross and did not FORCE people to adhere to or believe in anything. (See the difference between Him and YOU? -I do.-)

-Mel-

[Scrotum]

I repent that I ever lived of life of sexual licentiousness. That thought never leaves my mind. I supported and encouraged this pure evil and insanity that is being embraced by the Gay Agenda and the world of "Scrotum" and others. I repent, I repent, I repent. As long is their is breath within me I repent. It is time to live the meaning of that word Melikio.

Melikio, Why is my name in all this?
Because i think people should have a right to conduct their own sexuality as they wish, im part of GAG?

Or even better, i probably become a homosexual. Maybe GAG has some sort of virus that can spread like the plague.


I have problems taking you Serious John. I have a hard time really believing you are so ignorant and blatantly indoctrinated. It can be for real.

Sexual intercourse, when coined, meant the penis entering the vagina, until ejaculation for the man.

With your own definition, You would not have sex until ejaculation (this is the original definition). But this is not how reality is, words evolved, as man.

Today, sex is intercourse between to partners. Intercourse does not have to be vaginal, or oral, or anything specific like that. You can have oral sex between a man and a woman. You can have anal sex between a man and a woman, conducted quite a deal between partners during this century. You can have intercourse between a man and a man, oral, anal, or outercourse. You can have woman to woman touching eachother, having oral sex, and diverse, according to your definition, Male and Male, and Woman and Woman, can not have sex.

I hope you understand how ludricous it sounds. We have words to DEFINE things, and SEX, is the definition of what Males and Females alike, are doing, Homosexuals, Heterosexuals, it does not matter.

Maybe you had a bad childhood, and this is why you are like you are (no ad hominem, just a likelihood), but you need to be tolerant of people that does not have your opinions, just because you dont agree, does not make the world flat.

[McCulloch]

I repent that I ever lived of life of sexual licentiousness. That thought never leaves my mind. I supported and encouraged this pure evil and insanity that is being embraced by the Gay Agenda and the world of "Scrotum" and others. I repent, I repent, I repent. As long is their is breath within me I repent. It is time to live the meaning of that word Melikio.
It is time to live the meaning of that word.

1John,
I fail to see how this addresses the question for debate. Everyone who reads any of this thread knows abundantly what your opinion is. This is a debating forum, a call to one of your co-religionists to repent does not move the debate forward in any way.

Melikio,
You and 1John have a difference in what you believe about being Christian. However, if 1John is correct that homosexuality is a sin as defined by Christianity, then he has an obligation to call you to repentance by your common claim of being Christ's disciples. 1John is not calling you to repentance on his own authority, he is invoking Christian doctrine. Therefore, you should then show specifically how he is mistaken in his understanding of Christian teaching.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; ... For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. ... Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

[1John2_26]

Who in California or Massachusetts has been successfully convicted of a crime based simply on being a practicing Christian?

Very clever spin McCulloch. When have I ever doubted your skill with wording?

McCulloch, this mantra of yours does not prove that Christianity has not been criminalized by real laws. Christians are well-known for not breaking laws every bit as much as they are known for being homosexual pedophile priests.

Like paul says: "Why not rather be wronged?" Umm, he meant that directed at the victims not the perps. I say hang those child rapists in the town square.

Looking at the "Gay Evangelicalism" movement that advice from Paul is more important now more than ever.

Christians can no longer live freely because their beliefs are not tolerated. The lawyer representing the two girls in love attending a Christian High School seems to think a "law" was broken by Christian actions and beliefs. Meaning . . . there are laws criminalizing Christians for believing Christianity.

I was told by a young person (I was transporting), when hearing KLove on my radio; tell me that it was illegal for me to force her to litsen to Christian music as it violated her civil rights. I am not lying.

It is certainly illegal "now" to teach Christianity in public schools. It used to be completely acceptable until it was outlawed. You have heard of the ACLU? Or maybe the seperation of church and state "laws?"

[1John2_26]

[1John2_26]

Quote:
I repent that I ever lived of life of sexual licentiousness. That thought never leaves my mind. I supported and encouraged this pure evil and insanity that is being embraced by the Gay Agenda and the world of "Scrotum" and others. I repent, I repent, I repent. As long is their is breath within me I repent. It is time to live the meaning of that word Melikio.

It is time to live the meaning of that word.

It is still time for YOU to live what you believe; not tell others how to live.

I just defend Christians from attacks and harrassment and belittling and labeling. How interesting that you wiped away my Christian confession to you. I treated you like a brother and you spit on me.

Yours words mean little to me, 1John.

Christ's shouldn't. I am just a man. Christ Jesus is Judge of all.

Just live your life, and leave others to themselves; you shouldn't be allowed to define the morals of others.

But homosexuals can.

Notice I did not frame that as a question.

In the case of crimes/victims, my view changes substantially, but other than that you should live your "religious" values and relegate yourself to setting an example.

I protect Christians and love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do live my values.

When you say "repent", it means nothing to me because you are just making a statement.

Uhh, that is what you have to do. Biblically.

You haven't proven that you've "repented", so that doesn't matter here. What does matter it that you cannot direct what every person seeking and/or engaging in concentual sex should do in this life.

"Go and sin no more?" That was said about "consentual sex." "Who" said it?

You can apply that "religion" by faith to your own life, but you are rightly opposed by most anyone, when you attempt apply controls to the lives of others based upon your "religion".

It is time to live according to the words of Christ. "For Christians." People that want to form new religions or practice non-Christian ones can do what they please. But when they try to force me or my brothers and sisters to follow their lies, they are going to have to face "testing."

Either the person adheres to your values, or they do not.

My values? Gimme a break. I have proven beyond the shadow of doubt that I follow Biblical values very accurately noted.

You might pray to God on their behalf (that is fine); but this (basically stupid and offensive) PUSHING of your religion upon anyone but YOURSELF, is something that I believe needs to be challenged.

I'm still awaiting you to do so. Biblically. "We" are Christians are we not?

And certainly not just "Christians" should see that "challenge" (not attack), but any group that has a mindset which seeks to control other human beings.

That would be homosexuals and their progressive buddies. I have proven that also beyond doubt.

Homosexuals and homosexuality aren't going anywhere.

Not in a "God fearing" Church anyway.

And homosexuals aren't going to stand there as stationary targets for just any religious person to assail them.

Umm, those "God-fearing Churches are open to any repentant sinner? Notice I phrased that as a question? You have the answer.

They may be marginalized yet for quite some time, but things will change. Not that I'm seeking anything radically PRO-gay, but that I (and likely most others) will diligently seek protection from people like yourself.

When have I ever presented opposition to two adults screwing anyway they see fit to? Just don't try to find a way to Christianize abomination. All you will do is be intolerant of good people.

Repent, indeed; but don't PUSH others to do the same... that certainly isn't YOUR place where another's sexuality is involved.

According to the Bible it is. "In the Church." I admit that anti-Christ's will do what they want. I am no all that opposed to two adults joining in a life-long commitment to each other in a civil union. Call two people of the same-sex as getting married and you enter absurdity into a civil rights issue. Not even the Black Church is buying that.

You can believe what you want 1John, but unless you and yours manage to hijack the entire U.S. Constitution sometime very soon, your approach to these matters can/will be "challenged".

WHAT WAS THE FIRST FREEDOM??????????? Tell your gay activist anti-Christian community to practice what they preach!!!!!!!!!

I don't advocate nor except "criminalization of Christianity" (as you tend to CRY WOLF about), but I do see traditions along with social perceptions changing over time.

A fact is that eventually the wolf did attack the "boy." That day is here for Christians.

1John, there is a LOT that you could repent of here, and if you think that just because you claim follow the Bible, or have decided to adhere to certain beliefs, that other SHOULD follow; then you just aren't very realistic.

Jesus hung on a cross looking at people that failed Him. He was very realistic. Christ is another fact.

And maybe God is coming to BEAT UP everyone you and yours disagree with, maybe.

I pray not. Paul's advice is Christ's heart!!! "Why not rather be wronged." The Christian Church should let the homosexual anti-Christ's have their day. It will not last long. How long did Nero live?

But I'll bet ya' dollars-to-doughnuts, that you won't be found "fautless" (particularly about some of the things you've said here). Repent? Sure. But certainly not because YOU have judged me through YOUR selective religious grid.

I have posted facts that I am not faultless. Please select any Biblical text you want to. Not one place in the entire Bible supports the Gay Agenda. Please, please select from your religious grid???

Homosexuality and homosexuals are hardly handled in a helpful way by most Christians. That can be seen easily.

"God hates f--s" is not Christian. Quote me. If I meet that pastor that insults people like that I will denounce him to his face as Biblically as I do the homosexual attacks on my brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I admit that the human relationships between all people can be strained by any number of things; but that is what love is for, to bring people to where Jesus certainly was as a person (and God in the flesh).

You caveat "if" you forgot that? Or have you come to an epiphany? Christians are strained by a number of things. Another fact.

It's not about what you can dictate so forcefully as to IMPOSE your values upon others, but it's about offering something that promotes liberty, freedom and life.

My oursuit of happiness is called homophobia, hate speech and a crime to the Gay Agenda. I also do not like the Constitution. It supports porno more than deceny. Of course. Deists and agnostics thought up most of it.

So, no matter what you think, none (whether right-leaning Christians, or socialistic-gay atheists) are going to allow their basic human rights or freedoms to be diminished or trampled, just because someone SAYS they should be.

Ooooh. How impressive a declaration of freedom!!! "Don't tread on me." Should a Christian allow homosexuals to be authority over them in the Church? No. No where in the Bible is that supported.

STD's do trample assunder many though.

If we honored every "religion" and it's rules by LAW (as you tend to imply we should), what would this world look like? Do you prefer what's happening in the middle east now, or do you prefer the kind of corruption and oppressiveness which has led to more wars than people can ever list from memory?

Politically I don't care what is happeing in the middle east. They made thier their mat, let them lie on it.

You aren't going to control or eliminate homosexual people from the face of this planet, no more than unattractive people will be eliminated.

Interesting analogy. You may get opposition from the Queer Eyes guys. "Metrosexual." "Sodomite." Another perfect analogy.

In either case, the state of both is just a matter of fact... still, it doesn't warrant the mistreatment or dehumanization of either (which does happen). Gay people aren't out to hijack Christianity, but if you have managed to convince yourself of that, so be it; I can't seek to change that, anymore than I can change the shape of the planet.

There are homosexuals out to hijack Christianity. I have proven that beyond the shadow of a doubt. I have also become very motivated to contend for the faith because of it. Very motivated. But just not at work. I'll get fired. You know diversity "laws."

Joseph Smith hijacked Christianity. For similar reasons as the Gay Agenda.

Love is the real key, to everything that ails mankind. That is my primary religious view of things; it's flexible and adjustable, but it doesn't tend toward extremes (with the exception of violent behavior/crime). I have NO qualms about stopping a violent person DEAD in their tracks, to protect the well-being of those who are truly defenseless; victims are the key concept there.

Victims are my key aspect here. My brothers and sisters in Christ and their children have been targeted and I will tell them so.

Other than that, let all men work out their own consciences before God or fate. Stop seeking to control the hearts, minds or souls of other people, 1John.

I don't control anyone pal. I just so enjoy seeing delivering cognitive dissonance suffered by anti-Christians. It is a place where I need to seek repentance. Later. I'm actually hurting no one actually. Just making them feel their minds.

It's one thing to step on someone's toes in the usual course of human interaction, but it is another thing to assume that you have the authority to steer their wills to where YOU believe they should be. And that is the mistake of many who are religious in this world.

And a misteke as you can see, I do not make. I am not trying to evangelize anyone. Just protecting Christians from attack and letting them know they are not the bad guys. It is what we are called to do "for the brethren."

The "religion" tends to take on the "personality" of he who wields it. I've seen that countless times. And no matter how much talk of "standards" is submitted, I see this "customization" of religion at every turn.

I couldn't agree with you more. Notice I offer the Bible un-customized? Even to me.

I believe Jesus was fully aware of this, and through love pointed to a more universal access to that which many legalists would deny other human beings.

Mmmm hmmm. And?

He knew about homosexuality and the rest; He addressed everything from the Cross and did not FORCE people to adhere to or believe in anything.

Yes that is true.

And marriage? He seems to have known all about that two. Err, I mean too.

(See the difference between Him and YOU? -I do.-)

So you do open your eyes from time to time. I have always claimed that you were a Christian. Now keep on that path of discerning Biblical truth.

[melikio]

1John is not calling you to repentance on his own authority, he is invoking Christian doctrine. Therefore, you should then show specifically how he is mistaken in his understanding of Christian teaching.

Not all Christians see homosexuality as a sin. But more importantly, 1John doesn't KNOW what I've done (or what I am doing); He exudes that form of in-your-face religion, that intrudes upon rather than encourages. He wants me to STOP opposing HIS views and biblical interpretations. And even in that, I don't believe that every concern he has is completely unreasonable.

What appears "unbiblical" to me in the things 1John and others thinking as he does, is that "repentance" and "sinlessness" are often viewed as being prerequisites for administering the type of loving-kindness which Jesus freely gave a "wretched" world. That is, people (human beings) were not "good" before Jesus got up on that Cross. He extended His love and kindness to ALL, without "reservation". The truth is, I so rarely see that from "Christians" as they relate to those who are "homosexual". And it doesn't even have to go as far as homosexual-activism; from experience I KNOW (painfully so) that just having a homosexual-orientation is enough to get the "usual" anti-gay, biblically-supported lectures and poor treatment from most Christians.

I could do the SAME things to 1John, that he does to me and support it "biblically". I'm not into those kinds of battles, which include the Bible; I've seen and been in a lot of them; the arguments are seemingly perpetual. I don't believe the Bible is meant to be used that way.

My "biblical" emphasis is based upon what my faith allows me to believe; and I have admitted often, that I really don't believe ALL of the Bible and certainly not literally; I never have, or realized the need to do so. So, my view of Christianity (to include my disbeliefs concerning the Bible itself), ARE a part of my overall biblical views. And maybe in the eyes of some, that makes me NOT a "Christian", but I'm not going to drive myself insane trying to align myself with the beliefs and expectations of every other person who happens to "know" the Bible. That is one very important reason why I give people the wiggle-room that I do; and it is why I question people who want to put a religious VISE around any who disagree with them. I DO NOT BELEIVE that Jesus Christ was about PUSHING people into belief or "holiness"; I believe that is an invention of man.

THe most moral people I've known in life, have also tended to be the most KIND and GENTLE people I've known; I do not think that is a coincidence. I've known many more people who can throw out Bible verses at will, while they live or demeanor reflects little of the evidence that proves they are "of" the "God" they say they are.

But since you are "reasonable", I can see your point overall. Likewise, I can see that 1John expects ALL Christians to line up with the doctrines he believes are mandatory. The difference is that I really don't believe a person has to be "right", to be "loved" completely by God/Jesus.

There are no sinless people in this world, and there are none who "repent" of ALL that they should/could. Why ever expect that (perfection) of people, as if God has made that a Christian's primary purpose? (I don't "believe" that it is.)

Finally, I used the word "believe" above quite a bit. And that leads me to say, that it IS a matter of "faith". 1John and I believe or have faith in DIFFERENT aspects of Christianity; we agree on some things, but not on what is proper in dealing with homosexual people (here and now). And I take some fault for not quitting this argument long ago; still, I just wanted many to know (especially gay people who struggle), that 1John's "biblical" views and doctrines are NOT the only ones on the planet (nor are they necessarily THE absolute truth).

-Mel-

[Wyvern]

Who in California or Massachusetts has been successfully convicted of a crime based simply on being a practicing Christian?

Very clever spin McCulloch. When have I ever doubted your skill with wording?

And yet you fail to answer the question.

McCulloch, this mantra of yours does not prove that Christianity has not been criminalized by real laws. Christians are well-known for not breaking laws every bit as much as they are known for being homosexual pedophile priests.

The onus is on you to prove your point, not the one rebuking it.

Like paul says: "Why not rather be wronged?" Umm, he meant that directed at the victims not the perps. I say hang those child rapists in the town square.

Public executions, yes thats the answer, it worked in biblical times so it must work now. Its probably good for a childs psychological developement too. Would this be the church or the state doing these executions? Or are they one and the same in your world?

Christians can no longer live freely because their beliefs are not tolerated. The lawyer representing the two girls in love attending a Christian High School seems to think a "law" was broken by Christian actions and beliefs. Meaning . . . there are laws criminalizing Christians for believing Christianity.

Many of us keep saying this but obviously it hasn't sunk in yet. Simply because a christian institution is ALLEGED to have broken a law does not mean that the law in question is anti-christian. Christians like everyone else is not above the law. The law treats everyone the same(mostly) and it is secular. Meaning as far as the law is concerned a christian school is no different than any other school. It is not exempt just because you think they should be.

I was told by a young person (I was transporting), when hearing KLove on my radio; tell me that it was illegal for me to force her to litsen to Christian music as it violated her civil rights. I am not lying.

This is why children are not lawyers, gotta give that person kudos for trying. Did you do what this child told you to do?

It is certainly illegal "now" to teach Christianity in public schools. It used to be completely acceptable until it was outlawed. You have heard of the ACLU? Or maybe the seperation of church and state "laws?"

Its called maturing just as people do so do nations. Its a very good thing to have separation of church and state unless you think you would be in the group that followed the state church. What would happen to the vast majority of people that don't follow your state religion? Would you compel them to convert or merely have another reason to discriminate against them? I say this because there is no generic christianity as you well know, can you tell me which is the "true" faith. What of all the people that aren't even christian? They already are discriminated by many people, just tonight on the local news there was a report of a hindu temple being vandalized.

[1John2_26]

Quote:
1John is not calling you to repentance on his own authority, he is invoking Christian doctrine. Therefore, you should then show specifically how he is mistaken in his understanding of Christian teaching.

Not all Christians see homosexuality as a sin.

The ones that do not read the Bible.

But more importantly, 1John doesn't KNOW what I've done (or what I am doing); He exudes that form of in-your-face religion, that intrudes upon rather than encourages.

WDJD? What did Jesus do? He exuded an in your face religion. Literally.

He wants me to STOP opposing HIS views and biblical interpretations.

That is not true at all. I want you to prove they are homophobic, hateful, intolerant and NOT supported by the Bible. I have never once closed my church doors to anyone except those that do not believe the Gospel; the faith delivered only once to the saints.

And even in that, I don't believe that every concern he has is completely unreasonable.

Your concerns are not unreasonable either Melikio. I could provide several Biblical texts that could very well fit homosexuals into the Church. None of the ones used by heretics and the Gay Agenda though.

What appears "unbiblical" to me in the things 1John and others thinking as he does, is that "repentance" and "sinlessness" are often viewed as being prerequisites for administering the type of loving-kindness which Jesus freely gave a "wretched" world.

Mel, I have never once presented a different view than that. "Except" to those that want to "change" the Gospel and Biblical texts. Those people are already condemned from the pages of scripture and all I'm am doing is believing what the Bible clearly declares. BUT! To those people I say: start your own religion. Don't rape Christianity.

That is, people (human beings) were not "good" before Jesus got up on that Cross.

Jesus was hung on that Cross. Other people hung Him there. Praise God for that sacrifice. Praise God for the ressurection.

He extended His love and kindness to ALL, without "reservation".

That is not true according to the Gospels. Or, any other New Testament epistle. There is a hellish result to refusing Christ.

The truth is, I so rarely see that from "Christians" as they relate to those who are "homosexual". And it doesn't even have to go as far as homosexual-activism; from experience I KNOW (painfully so) that just having a homosexual-orientation is enough to get the "usual" anti-gay, biblically-supported lectures and poor treatment from most Christians.

Sexual orientation is not a license to do whatever you want to. Where is the great moral message in the Gay Agenda? Lascivious licentiousness that no one has the right to challenge is not exactly a "Christian thing." How many names are on the AIDS quilt? How many have died innocently from other peoples immorality? How many children suffer from the selfishness of their parents????? The numbers are so large no one can now contaian them.

Where is the great message of morality of the Gay Agenda? Condoms? Hate crime laws to silence those that oppose sexual miscreants and sexual perversion taught to children?

I could do the SAME things to 1John, that he does to me and support it "biblically". I'm not into those kinds of battles, which include the Bible; I've seen and been in a lot of them; the arguments are seemingly perpetual.

This website is not: debatingmyemotionalfeelings.com.

I don't believe the Bible is meant to be used that way.

Jesus and every other perspective written in the Bible are in diametric opposition to that view Melikio.

My "biblical" emphasis is based upon what my faith allows me to believe;

Faith founded on rock. The Rock. Not a wish upon a star.

. . . and I have admitted often, that I really don't believe ALL of the Bible and certainly not literally; I never have, or realized the need to do so.

This is where Jesus and the people that believe these kinds of things part company.

So, my view of Christianity (to include my disbeliefs concerning the Bible itself), ARE a part of my overall biblical views. And maybe in the eyes of some, that makes me NOT a "Christian", but I'm not going to drive myself insane trying to align myself with the beliefs and expectations of every other person who happens to "know" the Bible.

E pluribis unum is not Christ Jesus. Immanuel is. Christians do not have the option of a cafeteria plan. Not according to Jesus.

That is one very important reason why I give people the wiggle-room that I do; and it is why I question people who want to put a religious VISE around any who disagree with them.

Please tell this to the Gay Agenda criminalizing Christians and targeting them and reporting them as homophobes and hate crimes perpetrators.

I DO NOT BELEIVE that Jesus Christ was about PUSHING people into belief or "holiness"; I believe that is an invention of man.

The invention of the dust pan is man's. Shaking the dust from your feet and walking away from people that refuse the Gospel is a directive from Christ Jesus to His followers.

THe most moral people I've known in life, have also tended to be the most KIND and GENTLE people I've known; I do not think that is a coincidence.

The pews are filled with very KIND and GENTLE peopel in every Church I have ever attended. I do not think that is a coincidence.

I've known many more people who can throw out Bible verses at will, while they live or demeanor reflects little of the evidence that proves they are "of" the "God" they say they are.

And now add to the hypocrites on that list, those that claim they are Christians and promote kids to choose homosexuality; in a Church.

But since you are "reasonable", I can see your point overall. Likewise, I can see that 1John expects ALL Christians to line up with the doctrines he believes are mandatory.

There are mandatory beliefs to being a follower of Christ Jesus. It is just another fact. Repentance and forgiveness are mandatory. Jesus had a lot of mandatory requirments. This truth is not hidden anywhere.

The difference is that I really don't believe a person has to be "right", to be "loved" completely by God/Jesus.

That would be THE message of the BIBLE!!!!!

There are no sinless people in this world, and there are none who "repent" of ALL that they should/could.

Homosexuals seem to declare they get a pass to their sin because they were born to do it. No one else is that lucky. Just them. How "convenient" a teaching.

Why ever expect that (perfection) of people, as if God has made that a Christian's primary purpose? (I don't "believe" that it is.)

"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Again Jesus with a contrasting opinion of things.

And of course: "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

Finally, I used the word "believe" above quite a bit. And that leads me to say, that it IS a matter of "faith". 1John and I believe or have faith in DIFFERENT aspects of Christianity; we agree on some things, but not on what is proper in dealing with homosexual people (here and now).

COMPLETELY WRONG. I only am concerned with Christians and children; and both being targets of the Gay Agenda to criminalize Christians (completely), and children to be free of sexual acts being described as a civil rights issue. The fact that the Bible completely supports my position is OK too. The fact that the Gay Agenda has criminalized Christias that believe in family and marriage is a fact that I will not be quiet about. Christians need to know they are not the evil ones here.

And I take some fault for not quitting this argument long ago; still, I just wanted many to know (especially gay people who struggle), that 1John's "biblical" views and doctrines are NOT the only ones on the planet (nor are they necessarily THE absolute truth).

As I have presented so many, many times. There are many "different" gospels. Ask the Mormons, the Muslims, or the Anglican Church.

But there is an absolute Way, Truth and Life. There is only One.

[melikio]

Ok, 1John.

Peace and best wishes. You have what you believe, and I don't our see disagreements or contentions as a deep purpose for living or examining religion/Christianity at all. I may indeed be wishing upon a star (as you say), but I do at least have peace in that, and it's a good place to start no matter where one is coming from (IMHO). I'm not out to control or frighten others with my beliefs, and that counts for something (I know that intuitively, because of the way this world is wired period).

I'll go on to my "Hellish" existence, or at least move on from arguing with you about anything. I'll be gay, unless God changes it, and yes... if God is anything like the picture you've painted, I don't see how anyone will escape the fires of Hell. But that is YOUR religious world; I'm not coming any nearer to your perspective, than I already have (I once held the kind of views you now hold (imagine that).

I've likely been at it too long with you (myself). But I encourage anyone who has an opposing viewpoint, to continue challenging what you say is "truth". Not that you lie, but that what you communicate isn't always THE absolute "truth". Separating wheat/chaff? (Reality can usually do that over time; I've seen it happen many times.)

And the only way some people will know THE truth, is to challenge what is presented as such. (Otherwise, you can sell them anything.)

Still, I am comforted in the reality that truth cannot be swept completely under the rug; and that no group of human beings will enjoy perpetual control over any other group of human beings. Justice and freedom is far more profound and universal than your particular view of it.

Regards,

-Mel-