Should people "shack-up" before marriage?

[Nickman]

I personally think that when two adults shack-up prior to marriage, they have a better chance of staying married and avoid divorce. This I have concluded from my own logic and experience. If we get to know a person prior to marriage on that level we are able to make a better decision about whether or not we can be married to that person. If we don't shack-up we won't be able to see how that person truly is in that setting. Christians tend to be against shacking-up which I feel has led to the statistics showing that they are more susceptible to divorce than atheists who do tend to shack-up.

What do you say? Should we shack up? Is it beneficial? If not why not?

P.S. Just because "god said so" is not a good answer. Please provide why it is harmful or wrong and the potential problem it could cause.

[Moses Yoder]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -ever.html

I will grant you some points on that one. It does occur to me though that instead of killing each other we now get even with litigation. According to the Bible it is just as bad to hate your brother as it is to kill him. Is it more sophisticated to sue people than it is to kill them? Some people might think it is; I say it is exactly the same thing.

[Nickman]

From the Barna survey

Variation in divorce rates by religion: Religion % have been divorced Jews 30% Born-again Christians 27% Other Christians 24% Atheists, Agnostics 21%


Ron Barrier, Spokesperson for American Atheists
He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

Dumb. In order to get divorced, you first have to GET MARRIED. These statistics don't count shack up breakups.

Now you have been advising people to do just that; shack up before they marry to see if it will work out. Now tell me; when and if it doesn't work out, and one of you moves out, is that breakup going to appear on the divorce statistics?

Answer, why no, Diana, they don't.

In other words, it's like telling the judge that you have never bought illegal drugs in your life; you just give the money to your friend and HE buys them for you.

Highly inaccurate and deliberately deceptive; and the actual statistics show that people who shack up and then marry are nearly a fourth again as likely to divorce as those who marry and THEN live together.

No D, this survey is about people who marry and then divorce. People who shack-up and then break up should not be included and it proves my point that it is better to shack-up first in order to see if your compatible before taking the big plunge into marriage. The reason shack-up breakups are not on here is because they are not marriages and they are irrelevant. Its like saying every breakup a person has should be considered on this survey as if it were a divorce. Tell me why a shack-up break up should even be on this survey? It is not a marriage now is it D? It is going steady and living under the same roof. It is also the reason a shack-up is more reasonable, so that people don't get into marriage and then divorce because they didn't know the partner.

So the survey is correct, atheists who marry, divorce less than religious folks and partly because they shack-up prior. People who don't shack-up and follow religious precepts are more likely to divorce.

You must tell me why a breakup outside of marriage should be considered a divorce when the couple is not even married?

[Nickman]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society and shacking-up shouldn't be shunned by the religious (it is only you guys who oppose it). Instead, people who want to shack-up should be seen as intelligent and rational. Those that don't shack-up should be looked at as irrational and naive, getting themselves into a situation without examining the risks and problems.

Here I have put in bold where you tell me I should have the same opinion as you and if not I should be viewed as irrational and naive. What kind of person thinks like that?

If you take this as me telling you what you should or shouldn't do personally, then that's on you. Im stating my opinion which is not an absolute claim of what I think you personally should do. I am speaking in generalizations. Shacking up should be seen as rational, but it is not mandatory and your free to think otherwise. The same goes for those that plunge into marriage without all the facts. It is their right to do so but I stated these comments to show the similarities of buying a car and choosing a mate. If it is irrational to buy a car on the salesmans word then so should plunging into the unknown of marriage without getting all the facts. The other point I made was that if it is rational to take a mechanic with you and to study the Carfax before buying a car, then it is also rational to shack-up when choosing a mate. The two are analogous. Thats all I am saying. Im apologize if you felt that was a personal attack, it was not meant that way, and in the future I will word my posts differently to avoid confusion or misinterpretation.

[Moses Yoder]

The reason shack-up breakups are not on here is because they are not marriages and they are irrelevant.

So after two years of sharing a bed, maybe having a child, becoming one in spirit (a function of loving each other while living together and having a sexual relationship) she probably thinks you are about to get married and you come home one day and say "Sorry honey, this was all irrelevant?" From what vantage point?

[dianaiad]

From the Barna survey

Variation in divorce rates by religion: Religion % have been divorced Jews 30% Born-again Christians 27% Other Christians 24% Atheists, Agnostics 21%


Ron Barrier, Spokesperson for American Atheists
He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

Dumb. In order to get divorced, you first have to GET MARRIED. These statistics don't count shack up breakups.

Now you have been advising people to do just that; shack up before they marry to see if it will work out. Now tell me; when and if it doesn't work out, and one of you moves out, is that breakup going to appear on the divorce statistics?

Answer, why no, Diana, they don't.

In other words, it's like telling the judge that you have never bought illegal drugs in your life; you just give the money to your friend and HE buys them for you.

Highly inaccurate and deliberately deceptive; and the actual statistics show that people who shack up and then marry are nearly a fourth again as likely to divorce as those who marry and THEN live together.

No D, this survey is about people who marry and then divorce. People who shack-up and then break up should not be included and it proves my point that it is better to shack-up first in order to see if your compatible before taking the big plunge into marriage. The reason shack-up breakups are not on here is because they are not marriages and they are irrelevant. Its like saying every breakup a person has should be considered on this survey as if it were a divorce. Tell me why a shack-up break up should even be on this survey? It is not a marriage now is it D? It is going steady and living under the same roof. It is also the reason a shack-up is more reasonable, so that people don't get into marriage and then divorce because they didn't know the partner.

So the survey is correct, atheists who marry, divorce less than religious folks and partly because they shack-up prior. People who don't shack-up and follow religious precepts are more likely to divorce.

You must tell me why a breakup outside of marriage should be considered a divorce when the couple is not even married?

Because a divorce is the ending of a relationship. That's what it IS. The dissolving of a relationship between people, with all the damage that causes; financial and emotional.

Shackup breakups cause the same amount of emotional damage, and if you think it doesn't cause the same amount of FINANCIAL damage, you need to look a little closer at 'palimony' laws.

Turns out that people who live together in a sexual relationship have just as many...and the same kind...of breakup issues that divorced people do. Ending up in court is ending up in court, either way.

[Nickman]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

Sophisticated- 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated:

This definition itself describes the world we live in currently. So, yes, we are more sophisticated as a society than we were in the bronze age.

It is ideal because everyone in our American society has the ability to create their own purpose and goals without someone or thing telling them what they can and can't do pertaining to marriage (the exception is homosexuals due to religious pressure against this minority group).

In bible times a couple could be stoned for shacking up. We don't have to worry about that today. People can and do shack-up which allows them greater insight into their relationships without fear of being stoned or persecuted. The rational thing to do before marriage is to shack-up.

Below is a list of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Pyramids of Egypt
Colossus of Rhodes
Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Mauseoleum at Halicanassus
Pharos Lighthouse of Alexandria
Statue of Zeus at Olympia
Temple of Artemis at Ephesus

What is being built today that compares to these? I take note of your opinion and have now provided evidence to the contrary.

The scientific methods, and technology are far more sophisticated than the seven wonders of the ancient world. We have went to the moon, sent rovers to mars, mapped part of our galaxy, found new planets light years away, made iphones, video games, skyscrapers taller than anything in the past, decoded the human genome, discovered medicine, cloned animals, cured disease and many more things. Your seven wonders are infierior and less sophisticated. You wanna try again?

[Nickman]

From the Barna survey

Variation in divorce rates by religion: Religion % have been divorced Jews 30% Born-again Christians 27% Other Christians 24% Atheists, Agnostics 21%


Ron Barrier, Spokesperson for American Atheists
He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."

Dumb. In order to get divorced, you first have to GET MARRIED. These statistics don't count shack up breakups.

Now you have been advising people to do just that; shack up before they marry to see if it will work out. Now tell me; when and if it doesn't work out, and one of you moves out, is that breakup going to appear on the divorce statistics?

Answer, why no, Diana, they don't.

In other words, it's like telling the judge that you have never bought illegal drugs in your life; you just give the money to your friend and HE buys them for you.

Highly inaccurate and deliberately deceptive; and the actual statistics show that people who shack up and then marry are nearly a fourth again as likely to divorce as those who marry and THEN live together.

No D, this survey is about people who marry and then divorce. People who shack-up and then break up should not be included and it proves my point that it is better to shack-up first in order to see if your compatible before taking the big plunge into marriage. The reason shack-up breakups are not on here is because they are not marriages and they are irrelevant. Its like saying every breakup a person has should be considered on this survey as if it were a divorce. Tell me why a shack-up break up should even be on this survey? It is not a marriage now is it D? It is going steady and living under the same roof. It is also the reason a shack-up is more reasonable, so that people don't get into marriage and then divorce because they didn't know the partner.

So the survey is correct, atheists who marry, divorce less than religious folks and partly because they shack-up prior. People who don't shack-up and follow religious precepts are more likely to divorce.

You must tell me why a breakup outside of marriage should be considered a divorce when the couple is not even married?

Because a divorce is the ending of a relationship. That's what it IS. The dissolving of a relationship between people, with all the damage that causes; financial and emotional.

Shackup breakups cause the same amount of emotional damage, and if you think it doesn't cause the same amount of FINANCIAL damage, you need to look a little closer at 'palimony' laws.

Turns out that people who live together in a sexual relationship have just as many...and the same kind...of breakup issues that divorced people do. Ending up in court is ending up in court, either way.

It is still not a divorce D, which is the subject of the survey. You have no stats to atheistic shackup breakups so you have no argument. You will have to provide evidence that shackup breakups between atheists exceeds the survey stats and the shackup breakups of theists.

The point is that atheists divorce less than theists, and part of the reason is because they shackup. Every breakup has problems but the shqckup breakups are not as difficult to solve as divorce especially with kids, homes and other assets. Most every couple I know that shacks up rent and don't have kids. Im not saying people don't but im willing to bet the statistics of people who shack up have intent to marry later and to have kids. But this is something that could never be proven either way. There are to many variables.

[Moses Yoder]

We now live in a more sophisticated and ideal society

Please provide evidence for this claim that we live in a more sophisticated and ideal society or retract the claim. I will accept scientific studies that are published on the web. I will not accept someone's opinion.

Sophisticated- 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated:

This definition itself describes the world we live in currently. So, yes, we are more sophisticated as a society than we were in the bronze age.

It is ideal because everyone in our American society has the ability to create their own purpose and goals without someone or thing telling them what they can and can't do pertaining to marriage (the exception is homosexuals due to religious pressure against this minority group).

In bible times a couple could be stoned for shacking up. We don't have to worry about that today. People can and do shack-up which allows them greater insight into their relationships without fear of being stoned or persecuted. The rational thing to do before marriage is to shack-up.

Below is a list of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Pyramids of Egypt
Colossus of Rhodes
Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Mauseoleum at Halicanassus
Pharos Lighthouse of Alexandria
Statue of Zeus at Olympia
Temple of Artemis at Ephesus

What is being built today that compares to these? I take note of your opinion and have now provided evidence to the contrary.

The scientific methods, and technology are far more sophisticated than the seven wonders of the ancient world. We have went to the moon, sent rovers to mars, mapped part of our galaxy, found new planets light years away, made iphones, video games, skyscrapers taller than anything in the past, decoded the human genome, discovered medicine, cloned animals, cured disease and many more things. Your seven wonders are infierior and less sophisticated. You wanna try again?

It kind of irritates me when theists are taken to task for making a claim with no evidence to back it up and atheists are allowed free reign. "Sophisticated" and "Ideal" are subjective terms with no scientific basis. In your opinion the world is now more sophisticated. In mine, it is not. Feel free to attempt to convince me. My cousin has what I call an ideal sophisticated life. He is Amish. All their farming is done with horses, they own and operate a bakery with wood fired stoves, etc. How is it sophisticated to complicate your life? Just answer one thing; is a cell phone sophisticated and ideal? In my opinion it is not. For one thing, in a movie I saw the cell phone was sugically implanted into the hand. Compared to those ours are not sophisticated. Another thing, I would greatly prefer to speak to someone in person; how can it be sophisticated to eliminate human contact? Is the concept of "The Matrix" sophisticated?

[Nickman]

It kind of irritates me when theists are taken to task for making a claim with no evidence to back it up and atheists are allowed free reign. "Sophisticated" and "Ideal" are subjective terms with no scientific basis. In your opinion the world is now more sophisticated. In mine, it is not. Feel free to attempt to convince me. My cousin has what I call an ideal sophisticated life. He is Amish. All their farming is done with horses, they own and operate a bakery with wood fired stoves, etc. How is it sophisticated to complicate your life? Just answer one thing; is a cell phone sophisticated and ideal? In my opinion it is not. For one thing, in a movie I saw the cell phone was sugically implanted into the hand. Compared to those ours are not sophisticated. Another thing, I would greatly prefer to speak to someone in person; how can it be sophisticated to eliminate human contact? Is the concept of "The Matrix" sophisticated?

I gave examples of being more sophisticated in our modern world. You gave the seven wonders of the ancient world. I then gave more sophisticated examples. You may believe that the ancient wonders of the world are more sophisticated than our modern technology, thats up to you. I think that an Iphone or laptop, or spaceshuttle, or Mars probe, or hubble telescope are far more sophisticated and advanced. I think others would agree. Thats not the topic of the debate. The topic is whether or not shacking-up before marriage is more reasonable and logical than marrying without the knowledge you gain from shacking-up.

I provided the Barna survey not specifically as evidence but just for a debate topic. Although the survey showed that atheists divorce less, doesn't mean that shacking-up is the direct reason. Thats why we are debating and trying to figure this out. I'm not sure why you seem defensive on this topic.

You also said,"How is it sophisticated to complicate your life?"

Because the definition of sophisticated is thus:

so·phis·ti·cat·ed (s -f s t -k t d). adj. 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated: the latest and most sophisticated technology.
3. Suitable for or appealing to the tastes of sophisticates: a sophisticated drama.

So my examples I gave are in fact more sophisticated. I feel that you didn't quite understand the definition of sophisticated and have replaced the true definition with that of the words naive or simple.

Questions for you Moses;

Is it more reasonable to shack-up prior to marriage, if you want to find out the most you can about a person before you marry them? Like buying a car.

If it is more reasonable, then why do the religious maintain that they should not shack-up or look down upon those who do?

[Goat]

It kind of irritates me when theists are taken to task for making a claim with no evidence to back it up and atheists are allowed free reign. "Sophisticated" and "Ideal" are subjective terms with no scientific basis. In your opinion the world is now more sophisticated. In mine, it is not. Feel free to attempt to convince me. My cousin has what I call an ideal sophisticated life. He is Amish. All their farming is done with horses, they own and operate a bakery with wood fired stoves, etc. How is it sophisticated to complicate your life? Just answer one thing; is a cell phone sophisticated and ideal? In my opinion it is not. For one thing, in a movie I saw the cell phone was sugically implanted into the hand. Compared to those ours are not sophisticated. Another thing, I would greatly prefer to speak to someone in person; how can it be sophisticated to eliminate human contact? Is the concept of "The Matrix" sophisticated?

I gave examples of being more sophisticated in our modern world. You gave the seven wonders of the ancient world. I then gave more sophisticated examples. You may believe that the ancient wonders of the world are more sophisticated than our modern technology, thats up to you. I think that an Iphone or laptop, or spaceshuttle, or Mars probe, or hubble telescope are far more sophisticated and advanced. I think others would agree. Thats not the topic of the debate. The topic is whether or not shacking-up before marriage is more reasonable and logical than marrying without the knowledge you gain from shacking-up.

I provided the Barna survey not specifically as evidence but just for a debate topic. Although the survey showed that atheists divorce less, doesn't mean that shacking-up is the direct reason. Thats why we are debating and trying to figure this out. I'm not sure why you seem defensive on this topic.

You also said,"How is it sophisticated to complicate your life?"

Because the definition of sophisticated is thus:

so·phis·ti·cat·ed (s -f s t -k t d). adj. 1. Having acquired worldly knowledge or refinement; lacking natural simplicity or naiveté. 2. Very complex or complicated: the latest and most sophisticated technology.
3. Suitable for or appealing to the tastes of sophisticates: a sophisticated drama.

So my examples I gave are in fact more sophisticated. I feel that you didn't quite understand the definition of sophisticated and have replaced the true definition with that of the words naive or simple.

Questions for you Moses;

Is it more reasonable to shack-up prior to marriage, if you want to find out the most you can about a person before you marry them? Like buying a car.

If it is more reasonable, then why do the religious maintain that they should not shack-up or look down upon those who do?

In the Jewish religion, it is tradition that those people who are born of specifically restricted sexual practices are 'unclean', and can not 'marry' religiously, but it no shame to 'shack up' so to speak.