Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isnt under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 305 by KCKID]

KCKID

<sigh> 99percent ...
I don't know why the need to be going around in circles here.

I do. The effectiveness of propaganda demands it. A different Gospel must be delivered in a tasty sounding and "attractive" package.

The below texts contain the term 'abomination'. As explained further down the page, ALL of these definitions pertain to idolatry and they use the exact same word (towebah) as found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Once again, these texts have nothing to do with homosexuality as we refer to the term today.

The very phrase "lying with a man as with a woman" defines sex acts. It is clearly not talking about camping in Yosemite. It IS exactly the same behavior as we describe gay sex as we refer to the term today.

Furthermore, revealing the true nature of the texts that have too long been aimed at gay people has NOTHING to do with any supposed 'gay support agenda'. These texts simply mean what they mean!

Even taken out of context which you have done, when compared side to side with the other proscriptions of sexual behavior, your point and position fades into nothingness. Unless you are trying to demand that "Temple Shrine Prostitutes" numbered into many different kinds sexual encounters, like with your Father's Wife etc., etc., etc.. Gay sex is listed with other kinds of sexual acts that are inappropriate and forbidden.

ABOMINATIONS and their association with IDOLATRY

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/A ... dolatry-Is

Jeremiah 32:32-35
because of all the evil of the sons of Israel and the sons of Judah which they have done to provoke Me to anger--they, their kings, their leaders, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. "They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction. "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. read more.

Where is the affirming declaration of gay sex and gay theology in Jeremiah 32? When you see how God (or the Word of the Lord) denigrates the people and their religious leaders for "turning their backs on Him," doesn't it serve a better position to claim that gay pride is coming from those that have turned their backs on God and defiled themselves and the land? This entire gay pride movement is incredibly new and the most effective campaign came straight out of Stonewall riots, which was a place well known for its youth prostitution!

And like I have already pointed out, why can't the Gay Pride Flag be held in the same light? That "idol" or at least that "icon" does not call its people to holiness. It represents many, things that would be "detestable acts" to any Biblical Prophet. But be that as it may, the description of gay sex acts in the New Testament as well do not any affirming model for any gay pride movement, inside or outside of the Church.

Deuteronomy 7:25-26
Verse Concepts
"The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, or you will be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God. "You shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned.

That does not "affirm" gay sex acts. And everywhere in the Bible, there is no such thing as same gender marriage. It is another Gospel that preaches that. And in the Old Testament, it would the peoples outside of Israel that God demanded them NOT to be like!

Deuteronomy 12:31
Verse Concepts
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Let's start at the beginning of Chapter 12:

These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to possess"as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way

The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same. 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it

Adding Gay Marriage is adding something never even once is "affirmed" in the entire Bible. But it IS adding something that pagans did.

4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way
[/quote]

And I do believe, that the argument made incessantly about "gay marriage" is that it is secular and not something "The Church" can or should do anything about. And with all Biblical context in reality, there is no affirming of homosexuality "as we know it today" anywhere in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:9-13
Verse Concepts
"When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

How many people rallying to gay pride events would qualify as those kinds of people?

Deuteronomy 27:15
Verse Concepts
Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.' And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.'

Good. A reference to the Ten Commandments? Like this one:

Honor thy mother and they father . . .

Not one word affirming gay marriage. Not one word about honoring your mother and your mother. Your father and your father. Not one word affirming gay sex acts.

Deuteronomy 29:17-18
moreover, you have seen their abominations and their idols of wood, stone, silver, and gold, which they had with them); so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there will not be among you a root bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood.

The ROOT feeds the tree. Not a source of theological support for gay pride KCKID.

Deuteronomy 32:15-16
Verse Concepts
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation. "They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.

Jesus not only defined (actually RE-defined) marriage as man and woman, he referenced God, at the beginning making this so. Who is forsaking God KCKID? There is after all no such thing as same gender marriage, nor is there any affirming statements in the Bible of homosexuality as we define it today.

1 Kings 11:4-8
For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.

Yes, Solomon followed "a different Gospel." And no where in all of Solomon's Israel (that's in the Old Testament" did Israel ever affirm gay sex acts, gay marriages or gay pride as we know of it today. And seeing that Solomon was led astray into all sorts of wickedness and "abominations" by outsiders . . . you would think that same sex marriages would be listed clearly in the Biblical witness. But we have to face the facts, IF they were or would have been, they would have been from the Nations that God told Israel (and the Israelites) NOT to be like.

2 Kings 23:13
Verse Concepts
The high places which were before Jerusalem, which were on the right of the mount of destruction which Solomon the king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Milcom the abomination of the sons of Ammon, the king defiled.

This is not boding well for what is empowering the gay pride movement.

Isaiah 44:19
Verse Concepts
No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, "I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals. I roast meat and eat it. Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!"

A flag of rainbow colored cloth represents the gay pride movement worldwide. As of course does the sex acts that define the L the G and the B.

Jeremiah 4:1-2
Verse Concepts
"If you will return, O Israel," declares the LORD, "Then you should return to Me. And if you will put away your detested things from My presence, And will not waver, And you will swear, As the LORD lives,' In truth, in justice and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, And in Him they will glory."

From Rabbi Paul, an Israelite:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ . . .

Flee Sexual Immorality

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be dominated by anything. Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, The two will become one flesh. But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Flee from sexual immorality.

Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

Jeremiah 7:30
Verse Concepts
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

There are Churches that are flying the gay pride flag over and on then right now. Does that flag represent the God of Israel? Does it represent the Christian Gospel? It does though, represent "the Gay Community" doesn't it?

Jeremiah 16:18
Verse Concepts
"I will first doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable idols and with their abominations."

AND with their abominations.

Ezekiel 5:9
Verse Concepts
And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.

Ezekiel 7:20
Verse Concepts
They transformed the beauty of His ornaments into pride, and they made the images of their abominations and their detestable things with it; therefore I will make it an abhorrent thing to them.

Pride? Pride?

Prophecy in the making or prophecy realized?

Ezekiel 8:5-18
Then He said to me, "Son of man, raise your eyes now toward the north." So I raised my eyes toward the north, and behold, to the north of the altar gate was this idol of jealousy at the entrance. And He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great abominations which the house of Israel are committing here, so that I would be far from My sanctuary? But yet you will see still greater abominations." Then He brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, a hole in the wall.

And looking through that prophetic "hole in the way" we see that there synagogues and churches performing "gay marriages" as we write.

Ezekiel 11:17-21
"Therefore say, Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel."' "When they come there, they will remove all its detestable things and all its abominations from it. "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, read more.

In Israel, a marriage is man and woman/husband and wife:

Then the Lord God said, It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him. Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said,

This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Genesis 2

And what is the "for this reason?" What does divorce render asunder?

Per Jesus, it is a marriage. A marriage per Jesus is exactly what God, said it is "from the beginning."

And homosexuality? Even if the Adam and Eve "story" is a metaphor . . . "it" (homosexuality/same gender sexual behavior) was the same in ancient times, as as we know it today. Anatomy, physiology and biology has not changed at all since either the creation described in the Bible OR the evolution described by Darwin and his evolutionist predecessors and adherents today.

Ezekiel 20:30
Verse Concepts
"Therefore, say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD, "Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and play the harlot after their detestable things?

Anyone have John Shelby Spong's phone number or email address? Better enlighten the man.

Hosea 9:10
Verse Concepts
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your forefathers as the earliest fruit on the fig tree in its first season. But they came to Baal-peor and devoted themselves to shame, And they became as detestable as that which they loved.

Rabbi Paul?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, But the righteous man shall live by faith.

Unbelief and Its Consequences

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Peter 4:3
Verse Concepts
For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties AND abominable idolatries.[/color]

AND abominable idolatries. It seems to follow a path from the choice to engage in detestable acts to worshiping something other than the Creator. From innocence to corruption to being innocent to being corrupted. Debauchery follows an ancient path to even this world we live in today.

See more at: http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/A ... LdrLi.dpuf

There are two separate Hebrew words for all of the 'abominations' listed above. And, they are ALL affiliated with 'idolatry'. The two Hebrew words are "towebah" (#8441) and "shiqquwts" (#8251) from Strong's Concordance.

Strong's #8441: towebah (pronounced to-ay-baw') or tonebah {to-ay-baw'}; feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol:-- abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

Strong's #8251: shiqquwts:- detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing.

1 Peter 4:3 speaks for itself.

And there is a Biblical concept for marriage as well. It is man and woman/husnand and wife. Immutably so in fact. Biblical marriage is not a concept nor definition or configuration that supports or affirms homosexuality or its homosexualization. "As we know of it today." But it looks like from your very own reference work that the idolatrous nations that God demanded that His followers not be like, did affirm it, practice it and seduced others into supporting and engaging in it.

Right KCKID?

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 305 by KCKID]

KCKID

<sigh> 99percent ...
I don't know why the need to be going around in circles here.

I do. The effectiveness of propaganda demands it. A different Gospel must be delivered in a tasty sounding and "attractive" package.

Yet again you make reference to 'a different Gospel'. What does homosexuality - or heterosexuality for that matter - have to do with the Gospel?

The below texts contain the term 'abomination'. As explained further down the page, ALL of these definitions pertain to idolatry and they use the exact same word (towebah) as found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Once again, these texts have nothing to do with homosexuality as we refer to the term today.

The very phrase "lying with a man as with a woman" defines sex acts.

No one has disputed that. It's the context of that passage that is under discussion. Males having sex with another male within the context of shrine prostitution, ala idolatry is highly likely the taboo spoken of here. Remember where God claims to be a jealous God? "Thou shalt have no other Gods before ME ...Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them, for "I" am the Lord thy God!" Idolatry and its associated practices are detestable ('towebah') to God. You already know this, 99percent, so I don't know why you continually need it explained to you.

Please, 99percent, read up on these acts of idolatry and you will find that no one is making up this stuff!

It is clearly not talking about camping in Yosemite. It IS exactly the same behavior as we describe gay sex as we refer to the term today.

Heterosexual infidelity is also the same 'behavior' that would occur within a 'legit' relationship ...you know, male and female sex. However, adultery is (according to the Bible) still punishable by death. The very same acts (or behaviors) might be acceptable in some situations but not in others.

Context ...!

Furthermore, revealing the true nature of the texts that have too long been aimed at gay people has NOTHING to do with any supposed 'gay support agenda'. These texts simply mean what they mean!

Even taken out of context which you have done, when compared side to side with the other proscriptions of sexual behavior, your point and position fades into nothingness. Unless you are trying to demand that "Temple Shrine Prostitutes" numbered into many different kinds sexual encounters, like with your Father's Wife etc., etc., etc.. Gay sex is listed with other kinds of sexual acts that are inappropriate and forbidden.

However, both Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are unequivocally linked to idolatry because of the term used to describe them. As already mentioned umpteen times, 'abomination' or 'towebah' is used in those texts in a 'ritually impure' sense. The imposition of the death penalty in Leviticus 20:13 is the same for any number of so-called 'violations' of these archaic commands, including the punishment for adultery, profaning the Sabbath (that most Christians do every week!), disobedient children, etc. etc.

Here's a little tongue-in-cheek video (related to the above) for you:
Bible Verse 2, Leviticus 18:22

The rest of your post was in reference to the Bible texts I presented as examples of how the term 'abomination' (exactly as that found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) and its common usage in those passages is clearly related to idolatry. There is no getting away from this fact. Therefore, your comments are moot.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 297 by KCKID]


I own a Septuagint.

Here is Leviticus 18 in context:

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

- http://biblehub.com/sep/leviticus/18.htm

What about defining things differently "now" than in ancient times?

http://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/ ... n-denmark/

Laws in both Denmark and Norway are fairly open when it comes to a persons legal right to engage in sexual activity with an animal. The law states that doing so is perfectly legal, so long as the animal involved does not suffer. According to the Danish newspaper 24timer, this interesting gap in the law has led to a flourishing business in which people pay in order to have sex with animals.

On the internet, several Danish animal owners openly advertise their services. The newspaper contacted several such individuals and was told that many of the animals have been engaged in this kind of activity for several years and that the animals crave the sexual stimulation. The newspaper found that the cost charged by the animal owners varied from DKK 500 to 1,000 (USD$85 to $170).

The acts provoke moral disgust. The question is whether immorality should be made illegal.

The FSA group discussing the new animal protection act has been in disagreement about this, Knaevelsrud said.

One of the owners of an animal bordello in Denmark said that many of his clients come from abroad and travel some distance for his services. But the clients tell us that it is much simpler to buy animal sex in Denmark than in their own country, the owner said, explaining that many of his clients come from Norway, Sweden, Holland and Germany.

News Link:-: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008/05 ... z20Pm4uPrn

This is happening in our modern word today.

For those of us who are actually living in the present, i.e. the year 2014, I would suggest that the past (as above) be kept in the past and not be considered as a yardstick for present living.

- KCKID post 297

I am making no pronouncement about bestiality other than it is happening in today's world.

And you are dealing with a lack of understanding here. For example, Leviticus 18 starts off with Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances

So, what does 18:22 do with that?? It means that 18:22 is referring to the practice of Temple prostitution with men.

[Replying to post 297 by KCKID]


I own a Septuagint.

Here is Leviticus 18 in context:

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

- http://biblehub.com/sep/leviticus/18.htm

What about defining things differently "now" than in ancient times?

http://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/ ... n-denmark/

Laws in both Denmark and Norway are fairly open when it comes to a persons legal right to engage in sexual activity with an animal. The law states that doing so is perfectly legal, so long as the animal involved does not suffer. According to the Danish newspaper 24timer, this interesting gap in the law has led to a flourishing business in which people pay in order to have sex with animals.

On the internet, several Danish animal owners openly advertise their services. The newspaper contacted several such individuals and was told that many of the animals have been engaged in this kind of activity for several years and that the animals crave the sexual stimulation. The newspaper found that the cost charged by the animal owners varied from DKK 500 to 1,000 (USD$85 to $170).

The acts provoke moral disgust. The question is whether immorality should be made illegal.

The FSA group discussing the new animal protection act has been in disagreement about this, Knaevelsrud said.

One of the owners of an animal bordello in Denmark said that many of his clients come from abroad and travel some distance for his services. But the clients tell us that it is much simpler to buy animal sex in Denmark than in their own country, the owner said, explaining that many of his clients come from Norway, Sweden, Holland and Germany.

News Link:-: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008/05 ... z20Pm4uPrn

This is happening in our modern word today.

For those of us who are actually living in the present, i.e. the year 2014, I would suggest that the past (as above) be kept in the past and not be considered as a yardstick for present living.

- KCKID post 297

I am making no pronouncement about bestiality other than it is happening in today's world.

And you are dealing with a lack of understanding here. For example, Leviticus 18 starts off with Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances

So, what does 18:22 do with that?? It means that 18:22 is referring to the practice of Temple prostitution with men.

Let's take a look at context shall we?

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

Psalm 10_2 KJV:

King James Bible
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Other versions:

New International Version
In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises.

New Living Translation
The wicked arrogantly hunt down the poor. Let them be caught in the evil they plan for others.

English Standard Version
In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor; let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised.

New American Standard Bible
In pride the wicked hotly pursue the afflicted; Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

Where is the description that Egypt was into Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality?

Ancient Egyptian sexual practices as reflected in the Bible[edit]
The Bible enumerates homosexuality among one of the forbidden sexual relationships deemed as "the doings of the land of Egypt" (Leviticus 18:3), from which it can be inferred that homosexuality was indeed practiced by some segment of the population of Ancient Egypt.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... ient_Egypt

It's a stretch to demand that any and all proscription of "what we now call homosexuality" in the Bible is exclusively "Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality." It (male gay sex acts) is listed in many forbidden sexual choices and behaviors.

And we have the utter fact that many, many, many other deviant sexuality is proscribed that wouldn't have anything to do with "Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality" in the same contextual place where gay make sexuality is forbidden.

And then you have the consistent position that "marriage" is man and woman/husband and wife throughout the Bible from beginning to end. The gay theological position is one based on reinventing Biblical writ rather than to just deal with the immutability of it in the original historical and theological reality.

But alas:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to Gods holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling"these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

- Jude 1

How taking a line here, a line there from all over the place 'context'??

no, you provided 'sound bits'. Each one of those statements were taken out of context.

Theology by sound bits is not sound theology.

And, frankly, the sound bits from the New Testament is totally irrelevant to the writer of Leviticus.

What you've done by making this stand Goat, is categorically dismiss any and every position presented by the gay activist and and gay theologian. If by "sound bits" you are standing on denouncing . . . then that is a very good place to see the extreme weakness of the gay theological demands. It is pick and choose to the extreme. Marriage and "appropriate" sexuality is laid out in formal and descriptive lengths throughout the Bible as man and woman/husband and wife.

The following from Leviticus ( And remember "Temple shrine prostitution" was encountered by the Israelites after they left Egypt), which you claim cares nothing for the New Testament witness, makes it clear what is bad behavior for God's people by removing "sound bits" and replacing that with consistent reality. :

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations;

neither the native,

nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,)

28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people.

30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

And yet, the New Testament writers?

"Frankly, the sound bits from the New Testament is totally irrelevant to the writer of Leviticus. " - Goat

Not when placed in context. I didn't use "sound bits." but rather entire swaths of scripture. In context.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 297 by KCKID]


I own a Septuagint.

Here is Leviticus 18 in context:

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

- http://biblehub.com/sep/leviticus/18.htm

What about defining things differently "now" than in ancient times?

http://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/ ... n-denmark/

Laws in both Denmark and Norway are fairly open when it comes to a persons legal right to engage in sexual activity with an animal. The law states that doing so is perfectly legal, so long as the animal involved does not suffer. According to the Danish newspaper 24timer, this interesting gap in the law has led to a flourishing business in which people pay in order to have sex with animals.

On the internet, several Danish animal owners openly advertise their services. The newspaper contacted several such individuals and was told that many of the animals have been engaged in this kind of activity for several years and that the animals crave the sexual stimulation. The newspaper found that the cost charged by the animal owners varied from DKK 500 to 1,000 (USD$85 to $170).

The acts provoke moral disgust. The question is whether immorality should be made illegal.

The FSA group discussing the new animal protection act has been in disagreement about this, Knaevelsrud said.

One of the owners of an animal bordello in Denmark said that many of his clients come from abroad and travel some distance for his services. But the clients tell us that it is much simpler to buy animal sex in Denmark than in their own country, the owner said, explaining that many of his clients come from Norway, Sweden, Holland and Germany.

News Link:-: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008/05 ... z20Pm4uPrn

This is happening in our modern word today.

For those of us who are actually living in the present, i.e. the year 2014, I would suggest that the past (as above) be kept in the past and not be considered as a yardstick for present living.

- KCKID post 297

I am making no pronouncement about bestiality other than it is happening in today's world.

And you are dealing with a lack of understanding here. For example, Leviticus 18 starts off with Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances

So, what does 18:22 do with that?? It means that 18:22 is referring to the practice of Temple prostitution with men.

[Replying to post 297 by KCKID]


I own a Septuagint.

Here is Leviticus 18 in context:

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

- http://biblehub.com/sep/leviticus/18.htm

What about defining things differently "now" than in ancient times?

http://preciousjules1985.wordpress.com/ ... n-denmark/

Laws in both Denmark and Norway are fairly open when it comes to a persons legal right to engage in sexual activity with an animal. The law states that doing so is perfectly legal, so long as the animal involved does not suffer. According to the Danish newspaper 24timer, this interesting gap in the law has led to a flourishing business in which people pay in order to have sex with animals.

On the internet, several Danish animal owners openly advertise their services. The newspaper contacted several such individuals and was told that many of the animals have been engaged in this kind of activity for several years and that the animals crave the sexual stimulation. The newspaper found that the cost charged by the animal owners varied from DKK 500 to 1,000 (USD$85 to $170).

The acts provoke moral disgust. The question is whether immorality should be made illegal.

The FSA group discussing the new animal protection act has been in disagreement about this, Knaevelsrud said.

One of the owners of an animal bordello in Denmark said that many of his clients come from abroad and travel some distance for his services. But the clients tell us that it is much simpler to buy animal sex in Denmark than in their own country, the owner said, explaining that many of his clients come from Norway, Sweden, Holland and Germany.

News Link:-: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008/05 ... z20Pm4uPrn

This is happening in our modern word today.

For those of us who are actually living in the present, i.e. the year 2014, I would suggest that the past (as above) be kept in the past and not be considered as a yardstick for present living.

- KCKID post 297

I am making no pronouncement about bestiality other than it is happening in today's world.

And you are dealing with a lack of understanding here. For example, Leviticus 18 starts off with Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances

So, what does 18:22 do with that?? It means that 18:22 is referring to the practice of Temple prostitution with men.

Let's take a look at context shall we?

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

Psalm 10_2 KJV:

King James Bible
The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Other versions:

New International Version
In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises.

New Living Translation
The wicked arrogantly hunt down the poor. Let them be caught in the evil they plan for others.

English Standard Version
In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor; let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised.

New American Standard Bible
In pride the wicked hotly pursue the afflicted; Let them be caught in the plots which they have devised.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations; neither the native, nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,) 28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people. 30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

Where is the description that Egypt was into Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality?

Ancient Egyptian sexual practices as reflected in the Bible[edit]
The Bible enumerates homosexuality among one of the forbidden sexual relationships deemed as "the doings of the land of Egypt" (Leviticus 18:3), from which it can be inferred that homosexuality was indeed practiced by some segment of the population of Ancient Egypt.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... ient_Egypt

It's a stretch to demand that any and all proscription of "what we now call homosexuality" in the Bible is exclusively "Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality." It (male gay sex acts) is listed in many forbidden sexual choices and behaviors.

And we have the utter fact that many, many, many other deviant sexuality is proscribed that wouldn't have anything to do with "Temple Shrine Prostitution-homosexuality" in the same contextual place where gay make sexuality is forbidden.

And then you have the consistent position that "marriage" is man and woman/husband and wife throughout the Bible from beginning to end. The gay theological position is one based on reinventing Biblical writ rather than to just deal with the immutability of it in the original historical and theological reality.

But alas:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to Gods holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling"these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

- Jude 1

How taking a line here, a line there from all over the place 'context'??

no, you provided 'sound bits'. Each one of those statements were taken out of context.

Theology by sound bits is not sound theology.

And, frankly, the sound bits from the New Testament is totally irrelevant to the writer of Leviticus.

What you've done by making this stand Goat, is categorically dismiss any and every position presented by the gay activist and and gay theologian. If by "sound bits" you are standing on denouncing . . . then that is a very good place to see the extreme weakness of the gay theological demands. It is pick and choose to the extreme. Marriage and "appropriate" sexuality is laid out in formal and descriptive lengths throughout the Bible as man and woman/husband and wife.

The following from Leviticus ( And remember "Temple shrine prostitution" was encountered by the Israelites after they left Egypt), which you claim cares nothing for the New Testament witness, makes it clear what is bad behavior for God's people by removing "sound bits" and replacing that with consistent reality. :

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3Ye shall not do according to the devices of Egypt, in which ye dwelt: and according to the devices of the land of Chanaan, into which I bring you, ye shall not do; and ye shall not walk in their ordinances. 4Ye shall observe my judgments, and shall keep my ordinances, and shall walk in them: I am the Lord your God. 5So ye shall keep all my ordinances, and all my judgments, and do them; which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord your God.

6No man shall draw nigh to any of his near kindred to uncover their nakedness; I am the Lord. 7Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, for she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 8Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife; it is thy father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of thy sister by thy father or by thy mother, born at home or abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover; because it is thy nakedness. 11Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of the daughter of thy father's wife; she is thy sister by the same father: thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister, for she is near akin to thy father. 13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, for she is near akin to thy mother. 14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, and thou shalt not go in to his wife; for she is thy relation. 15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law, for she is thy son's wife, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness. 17The nakedness of a woman and her daughter shalt thou not uncover; her son's daughter, and her daughter's daughter, shalt thou not take, to uncover their nakedness, for they are thy kinswomen: it is impiety. 18Thou shalt not take a wife in addition to her sister, as a rival, to uncover her nakedness in opposition to her, while she is yet living.

19And thou shalt not go in to a woman under separation for her uncleanness, to uncover her nakedness. 20And thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 21And thou shalt not give of thy seed to serve a ruler; and thou shalt not profane my holy name; I am the Lord. 22And thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, for it is an abomination. 23Neither shalt thou lie with any quadruped for copulation, to be polluted with it: neither shall a woman present herself before any quadruped to have connexion with it; for it is an abomination.

24Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for in all these things the nations are defiled, which I drive out before you, 25and the land is polluted; and I have recompensed their iniquity to them because of it, and the land is aggrieved with them that dwell upon it. 26And ye shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and ye shall do none of these abominations;

neither the native,

nor the stranger that joins himself with you: 27(for all these abominations the men of the land did who were before you, and the land was defiled,)

28and lest the land be aggrieved with you in your polluting it, as it was aggrieved with the nations before you. 29For whosoever shall do any of these abominations, the souls that do them shall be destroyed from among their people.

30And ye shall keep mine ordinances, that ye may not do any of the abominable practices, which have taken place before your time: and ye shall not be polluted in them; for I am the Lord your God.

And yet, the New Testament writers?

"Frankly, the sound bits from the New Testament is totally irrelevant to the writer of Leviticus. " - Goat

Not when placed in context. I didn't use "sound bits." but rather entire swaths of scripture. In context.

No.. you are exactly, 100% wrong. The New Testament is not relevant to the writers of the Jewish scriptures. That is like saying the Book of the Mormon to
the writer of the Gospel of Matthew. It is meaningless to the original context.

You might have bolded stuff in Green in the old testament, that just shows where you were concentrating on. However, I pointed out the context. You can reject it... but hey, the peanut gallery can see what you are donig.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 311 by Goat]

...the peanut gallery can see what you are donig.

Speaking on behalf of the 'peanut gallery':
YES
We've been watching for a while now.


From what I've been told, back 'in the day', inter-racial couples had very similar hurdles to overcome within many christian churches.
Today, it's mostly a non-issue in the general sense it seems.
I wonder how long it will be until this is a non-issue? Seems a lot more close than many thing....

[Goat]

[Replying to post 311 by Goat]

...the peanut gallery can see what you are donig.

Speaking on behalf of the 'peanut gallery':
YES
We've been watching for a while now.


From what I've been told, back 'in the day', inter-racial couples had very similar hurdles to overcome within many christian churches.
Today, it's mostly a non-issue in the general sense it seems.
I wonder how long it will be until this is a non-issue? Seems a lot more close than many thing....

Probably a generation or two. There were churches (or are even) that don't allow for interracial couples to get married at their church.

[KCKID]

It's now been several days since my previous and specific response to your post, 99percent. I trust by now you've had time to see the merits of my argument. The Bible and its across-the-board condemnation of homosexuality, a position as held by most Christians, is a very weak one once the scriptures are exegetically understood. Would you now be willing to concede to the facts presented and finish this up with a friendly cyber-handshake?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 311 by Goat]

...the peanut gallery can see what you are donig.

Speaking on behalf of the 'peanut gallery':
YES
We've been watching for a while now.


From what I've been told, back 'in the day', inter-racial couples had very similar hurdles to overcome within many christian churches.
Today, it's mostly a non-issue in the general sense it seems.
I wonder how long it will be until this is a non-issue? Seems a lot more close than many thing....

Probably a generation or two. There were churches (or are even) that don't allow for interracial couples to get married at their church.

Of course.
That's because we all know inter-racial marriage is a sin and will destroy the sanctity of marriage
It's fun to watch christianity evolve, ain't it?!?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 311 by Goat]

...the peanut gallery can see what you are donig.

Speaking on behalf of the 'peanut gallery':
YES
We've been watching for a while now.


From what I've been told, back 'in the day', inter-racial couples had very similar hurdles to overcome within many christian churches.
Today, it's mostly a non-issue in the general sense it seems.
I wonder how long it will be until this is a non-issue? Seems a lot more close than many thing....

When a "Lesbian wife" can make another "Lesbian wife" pregnant, then your analogy will make some kind of sense. Which of course via evolution or Christian morality is impossible. And always will be until ovaries can produce sperm to make it into someone else's ovaries. Otherwise, the comparison between a male and a female of different "races" getting married in the way Jesus detailed marriage . . . will always be the way God set things in place for both proper sexuality and for family to "make sense." Racism is not the same thing as perfect theology and honest biology.

The only places where this issue will be a non-issue, are places where the Bible has already been so marginalized as to be nothing more than a paperweight. And then, only when necessary because some other newer book isn't handy.

Now, if you can produce clear and unambiguous scriptures detailing the celebration and affirmation of homosexuality "as we know it today," well then, that's a different analogy isn't it?

But so far, all we have is affirming silence for the neolgism of gay theology.

Not the same thing as we have for male humans and female humans getting "married" the way the Jesus in the Bible details it.

I'll ask the same of KCKID next.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 315 by connermt]

Please read post 316

Reality is a hard pill to swallow only when treating the wrong disease.

Let's see shall we?

When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?

Havent you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, For this reason

TIME OUT!

For what "reason?"

A "divorce" breaks up a "marriage." (A marriage per God/Jesus, being between a man/husband and a female/wife.)

OK TIME IN

. . . a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.

No same gender aspect to "marriage" at all. Not from the "start" or throughout the Bible, NOR . . . at any other time period written about all the way through to the end.

To answer the OP? "Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?"

Not according to the people that wrote the scriptures.