Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[99percentatheism]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

[KCKID]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

The thread topic is: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity . . .?

Pray tell, what DOES the above have to do with the thread topic?

[help3434]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

Maybe they were into raping people of the opposite sex. What makes one worse than the other? It is still rape.

[99percentatheism]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

Maybe they were into raping people of the opposite sex. What makes one worse than the other? It is still rape.

The Sodomites didn't think it was wrong to rape men or to do even worse to Lot.

In fact every one of them were in agreement to the acceptability of rape and threatening Lot with consequences for stopping them from engaging in their sexual behavior.

How does a society get to the point where rape is something that the society is OK with?

It's not from living the Gospel.

[99percentatheism]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

The thread topic is: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity . . .?

Pray tell, what DOES the above have to do with the thread topic?

NO

Is the answer to it.

You have posted many, many denominations that celebrate homosexuality. Why do you have to force your ways onto "Mainstream Christianity" that obviously stays the course of the New Testament?

[KCKID]

How many Christians went to their death as martyrs for no other reason than for preaching the Gospel?

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Here is what the Sodomites threatened Lot with for "preaching" to them:

“Get out of our way,� they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.� They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

- Genesis 19

Was Lot a judgmental religious bigot?

What could be "worse" to have happen to a person than a mob of men commiting gang rape on the two same gender visitors to Lot?

What would be the condition of a person's life if they had their business boycotted and shut down for no other reason than believing in marriage as Jesus defined it?

Since your beliefs about what God wants are your own thoughts, how are we supposed to read this as anything but you would want women raped before people refuse to worship your moral values?

I don't think you do. I think you are a better person than the God of the Bible.

Trust your heart - know that you don't need to defend the monster Yahweh, or the animals who worship him.

Really? Is that how YOU read the message of the Sodomite Mob? I think it's more that Lot's morality has been affected by the culture around him. That seems rather more of a fit.

Notice the Angels weren't in agreement with Lot's choice? Notice what they did to the Sodomites?

Ever wonder what the Gomorrahites were into to? They got the same "judgment" meted out to them as did their more infamous neighbors.

Maybe they were into raping people of the opposite sex. What makes one worse than the other? It is still rape.

The Sodomites didn't think it was wrong to rape men or to do even worse to Lot.

i.e. a Sodomite being an inhabitant of Sodom. NOT an official term used in the Bible to describe the inhabitants of that city for their, perhaps, having practiced buggery. Similar examples of 'ites' below:

Israelite - an inhabitant of Israel
Cannanite - an inhabitant of Cannan ...and so on
Moabite
Hittite
Jesubite
Amorite
Amalekite
Ammonite
Midianite

Anyway, back to 99percent's response . . .first and foremost Sodom and Gomorrah likely never existed. So, anything related to them is equally likely to be a fable. A person being punished and turned into a pillar of salt by God is a pretty good indication of this. Next, we are not told that the inhabitants of Sodom raped anyone. We're only told of their intent to rape as appears to have been their form of being 'inhospitable' toward strangers. Fable or not, these people were undoubtedly inbreeds and, if anyone has seen "Deliverance" (even though just a movie), we see a good example of the intimidation process given to unwelcome strangers. Similarly so with S&G. As with the "Deliverance" mountain men, those folks of S&G were undoubtedly heterosexuals, ignoramuses and probably anything else one would like to call them. Not to mention, of course, that they probably never existed in the first place and the story never occurred in reality.

In fact every one of them were in agreement to the acceptability of rape and threatening Lot with consequences for stopping them from engaging in their sexual behavior.

It might be time to grow up, 99percent, and put these dark and awful fairy stories away. The story of S&G is probably as real as Hansel and Gretel. Besides, it has nothing to do with the topic. But then, I'm just as guilty of derailing the thread by responding.

How does a society get to the point where rape is something that the society is OK with?

It's not from living the Gospel.

Probably not but where does rape fit into the question, Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity ...?? Besides that, it would appear that God was fine with rape.

[KCKID]

The thread topic is: Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity . . .?

Pray tell, what DOES the above have to do with the thread topic?

NO

Is the answer to it.

I asked and, eventually, you answered. Thanks. So, as far as you are concerned, those with a sexual orientation toward the same gender will be forever alienated from 'your' Church? I'm wondering if that's the immovable stance of every member of your Church or whether or not it's just a personal thing with you. Are you in a position where you can speak for your other Church members ...generally speaking, that is?

You have posted many, many denominations that celebrate homosexuality. Why do you have to force your ways onto "Mainstream Christianity" that obviously stays the course of the New Testament?

As far as I know, these Christian denominations don't 'celebrate' homosexuality any more than they 'celebrate' heterosexuality. They are simply gay affirming Churches that welcome homosexuals into their congregation. No one that I know is 'forcing their ways' onto mainstream Christianity. The Churches themselves, without any pressure from the so-called 'gay agenda', have opened their doors to gay people ...it's as simple as that. Furthermore, I think I know enough about Jesus to know that this is what He would do and that He would recommend others to do the same. Seems like you and yours are lagging behind the times, 99percent.

[Joab]

[Replying to post 84 by 99percentatheism]

I wonder who gave you the authority to speak for mainstream christianity

It would seem that ultra right wing conservative. which is how your posts appear to me, is a long way away from mainstream .

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 84 by 99percentatheism]

I wonder who gave you the authority to speak for mainstream christianity

It would seem that ultra right wing conservative. which is how your posts appear to me, is a long way away from mainstream .

I just agree with what Jesus, Paul, Peter and others in the New Testament . Who do represent "mainstream Christianity."

Marriage as man and woman:

Haven’t you read,� he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�

“Why then,� they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?�

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.�

Matthew 19

Homosexuality:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 1

Sexual perversions as a community affair:

As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4

Etc., etc., etc..

I just agree with those that not only do represent all of Mainstream Christianity, but founded it. Now, are you saying that pop culture and gay pride can alter the faith delivered only once to the saints?

Why didn't the Apostles try to evengelize Nero? He too was a "partner" in a few gay marriages.

But alas . . .

[Joab]

[Replying to post 88 by 99percentatheism]

I've brought this to your attention previously.

Not only is marriage in the bible not immutably man and woman, it can and has been between two different species. Angels and women. Straight out of the bible 99.
Your claim is thus refuted by your GOD.