Debating Christianity and Religion

Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?

I put this debate topic in this sub-forum because I’m not really interested in atheists’ opinions here, but I do wonder what Christians think.

On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous. I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

On the other hand, recent history has shown us that when gay marriage is legalized the right to oppose, or even abstain from involvement, is quickly lost. Opposing or abstaining from homosexual marriage is outlawed on the charge of discrimination. If gay marriage is legalized then we should expect, at the very minimum, that those who are morally opposed to homosexual action will still be required to act in support of homosexual actions if they wish to do business in their state.

I am unsure of the right approach. What do others Christians think?

bjs wrote: On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous.

That is exactly right. People who believe we should approve of homosexual activity and same sex marriage are trying to force their worldview on us and we must do all we can to oppose them.

I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

When we oppose same sex marriage we aren't forcing our world view on others; we are simply acknowledging the commands that God has given to the entire world. Satan has deceived the world into thinking that right and wrong are simply subjective opinions held by different groups. Even Christians have been been influenced by this idea. In fact God has established objective standards of right and wrong that apply to everyone and we will be judged according to whether or not we live up to them.

There is one thing I need to add to my reply above. The government can forbid same sex marriage but it can't do anything to change the hearts of homosexuals or show them how they can be forgiven for their sins. Regardless of what action the government takes we have a responsibility to share the gospel with them so they can be saved. Here is a site that can give helpful information about how to do this.

http://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

TfT is a confidential Christian support and teaching ministry that holds to authentically biblical teaching on sexuality. We offer support to individuals who experience same-sex attraction, but who choose not to embrace a gay identity or to pursue a same-sex relationship because of convictions of faith. We also support families, friends and church leaders of those who experience same-sex attraction.

bjs wrote:Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?...

I think the most fair solution would be to abolish "marriage" as a legal civil status. In its place there should be a simple legal "civil union" or "spousal union," available to all. All current marriages would be grandfathered into this new legal status. Marriage would then become a religious or traditional add-on (or even a non-legally binding alternative) having no legal status. Each different church would then decide which sort of unions (if any) it would agree to "marry."

This would level the legal playing field nationally, but it would not force anyone to recognize or refer to these unions as "marriage." In other words, by law I would have to offer whatever legal advantages accrue to the civil/legal union, but I would not be forced to refer to the union as a "marriage," with all of the historical and religious significance of that term.

bjs wrote: On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous. I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

I agree, I also do not like this idea. And honestly, I can think of no good reason why the state should not allow two adults who choose to be married, to be married.
If I had to vote on the issue I would vote "no" because I have to vote according to my own views, and my view is that gay marriage is just one more roadblock to people becoming Christians. But I'm not going to go out of my way to either support or oppose it. Whether two gay people are legally married, or living together unmarried, or two unmarried straight people are living together, or committing adultery, or any such thing...it's still a roadblock. The issue is whether or not people are willing to truly make Jesus Lord and give up whatever is in the way of that, not whether the state legally recognizes gay marriage.

bjs wrote: On the other hand, recent history has shown us that when gay marriage is legalized the right to oppose, or even abstain from involvement, is quickly lost. Opposing or abstaining from homosexual marriage is outlawed on the charge of discrimination. If gay marriage is legalized then we should expect, at the very minimum, that those who are morally opposed to homosexual action will still be required to act in support of homosexual actions if they wish to do business in their state.

And here is the problem. Because, let's face it - it's only a matter of time before all states legalize gay marriage. Actually I'd bet the feds will beat them to it.
So, what I think this means is that individual Christians, Christian business owners, churches and church-affiliated organizations will have to have some honest conversations about the issue. Time to do some soul-searching. If they are morally opposed to gay marriage, are they sure of *why* they are opposed? Are the members united in this? Would they oppose gay marriage among their members, but look the other way on premarital (straight) sex? Or divorce? Or gossip, lying, slander, lawsuits among believers? Why? Because if they don't really know they will not be able to stand up to whatever legal challenges may come.
And I don't know what those challenges might be for sure, but suppose it comes down to churches could not be recognized as legal non-profits because of discrimination against gay marriages. Would they be willing to say "fine, we'll continue to meet together anyway, we'll just have to change the way we're organized?" What if it came down to losing a business, would the business owner be willing to walk away? What about Christian universities - I could see it happening that legally they could not refuse married gay people to live in married housing. If they chose to fight it I'm not sure they would win. Would they be willing to say "alright then, we will no longer offer married housing to anyone?"
Things are going to change, no doubt about that. How much they will change is hard to say. But I think it's time for us as Christians to decide what our response will be. And it may not be what we would like.

EduChris wrote:

bjs wrote:Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?...

I think the most fair solution would be to abolish "marriage" as a legal civil status. In its place there should be a simple legal "civil union" or "spousal union," available to all. All current marriages would be grandfathered into this new legal status. Marriage would then become a religious or traditional add-on (or even a non-legally binding alternative) having no legal status. Each different church would then decide which sort of unions (if any) it would agree to "marry."

This would level the legal playing field nationally, but it would not force anyone to recognize or refer to these unions as "marriage." In other words, by law I would have to offer whatever legal advantages accrue to the civil/legal union, but I would not be forced to refer to the union as a "marriage," with all of the historical and religious significance of that term.

OK, but suppose you are a church that is sponsoring a Christian family camp, and a gay couple wants to be teen counselors. Would you oppose that? Would it make any difference if they were legally "married" or legally "unioned?" I'm talking about a difference in defending a possible discrimination claim, not in how you refer to the word "marriage."

janavoss wrote:...suppose you are a church that is sponsoring a Christian family camp, and a gay couple wants to be teen counselors. Would you oppose that? Would it make any difference if they were legally "married" or legally "unioned?" I'm talking about a difference in defending a possible discrimination claim, not in how you refer to the word "marriage."

Such questions would be decided by the church's leadership. If the church's policy is not to marry gay couples, and if sexual activity is confined to marriage, then the denomination would have legitimate grounds to exclude the gay couple from any position of leadership within the church.

bjs wrote: Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?

I put this debate topic in this sub-forum because I’m not really interested in atheists’ opinions here, but I do wonder what Christians think.

On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous. I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

On the other hand, recent history has shown us that when gay marriage is legalized the right to oppose, or even abstain from involvement, is quickly lost. Opposing or abstaining from homosexual marriage is outlawed on the charge of discrimination. If gay marriage is legalized then we should expect, at the very minimum, that those who are morally opposed to homosexual action will still be required to act in support of homosexual actions if they wish to do business in their state.

I am unsure of the right approach. What do others Christians think?

When I was a Christian, I didn't think (and still don't) that any church should be forced to marry anyone they don't want to for whatever reason (even if it's a lie). That's where Christian influence on marriage should end.
Making gay marriage legal or illegal or keeping it illegal or whatever way you want to say it is none of the church's business. The church should have no say in what's legal or illegal anynmore than any other organization or group. I don't want any church to be involved in laws or politics personally, but that's not going to happen I'm sad to say.
Churches should say what they want to say and not force their ways on anyone. In the same way, no other person or group should force their ways onto a church or religious organization that doesn't accept public tax dollars.

theophilus40

bjs wrote: On the one hand, we do not have to look far in our world to see what happens when people try to enforce their worldview on others. The result is always disastrous.

That is exactly right. People who believe we should approve of homosexual activity and same sex marriage are trying to force their worldview on us and we must do all we can to oppose them.

Two things, I hope you have a VERY thick skin for the attacks you are going to be subjected to here at this website from the legion of supporters of homosexuality. And I hope you are able to contend for the faith well against that barrage of insults and traps sent your way. (But it can be both fun and sporting. And enlightening. You get to feel something of what the first century believers endured.)

I do not like the idea of Christians trying to legal enforce their worldview.

When we oppose same sex marriage we aren't forcing our world view on others; we are simply acknowledging the commands that God has given to the entire world.

That is just not in keeping with what Jesus is quoted as saying. "The world" and its ways, are not part of The Church. Per Jesus. et al.

Satan has deceived the world into thinking that right and wrong are simply subjective opinions held by different groups. Even Christians have been been influenced by this idea.

Biblically, "Satan" has to have permission to test people. It is tough to realize that some people are destined for opposition to the Gospel. We are to just keep to truth. That is why the Christian opposition to the gay agenda is treated with so much hostility. Satan does not have to influence the lost.

In fact God has established objective standards of right and wrong that apply to everyone and we will be judged according to whether or not we live up to them.

That "we" are Christ's followers. What "the world" does and wants to do is not the focus of preaching the Gospel. There are some that are simply always going to hate The Church. It is somewhat easy to see who and what they represent. And, what represents them.

So, "the Christian response to homosexual marriage," is rejection and/or indifference. And of course accurate defining. It is not part of Christian reality as defined IN the New Testament. I mean, how many voodoo marriages do Christians celebrate, condone or, even oppose?

And "Jesus never said a word" about voodoo marriages.

EduChris wrote:

bjs wrote:Should Christians in the USA support or oppose the legalization of homosexual marriage in their state?...

I think the most fair solution would be to abolish "marriage" as a legal civil status. In its place there should be a simple legal "civil union" or "spousal union," available to all. All current marriages would be grandfathered into this new legal status. Marriage would then become a religious or traditional add-on (or even a non-legally binding alternative) having no legal status. Each different church would then decide which sort of unions (if any) it would agree to "marry."

This would level the legal playing field nationally, but it would not force anyone to recognize or refer to these unions as "marriage." In other words, by law I would have to offer whatever legal advantages accrue to the civil/legal union, but I would not be forced to refer to the union as a "marriage," with all of the historical and religious significance of that term.

If you put secularism in its proper place, this is already the case. There really is no way to define same gender marriage as Christian unless the New Testament is simply thrown away.

And why should a Christian couple (immutably man and woman/husband and wife) care what the world and its ways says about their "marriage?"

How many virulently anti-Christian activists that are opposite genders do we oppose getting married?

Homosexuals do not figure into Christian New Testament reality in terms of marriage, (again) if the New Testament is to be important to those that identify themselves as an apostolic/Gospel based Christian.

By the way, if there is ANYTHING in the nature of mankind that has conditions . . . it is love. I'd like to see someone truly define "love" as having no conditions. A mother dying for HER child? That has conditions. Curing cancer? How many cancer scientists "care" about cancer in fur seals or Cuttlefish? And how many work for free? Etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc..