Debating Christianity and Religion

Numerous states are seeking to ban this therapy which is aimed at converting gay youths to be straight.

This therapy seems like a non-violent proactive way at trying to correct sin. Do Christians feel like the banning of this therapy is an injustice? Would Jesus have supported this non-violent therapy as the best method for helping gays to overcome their sin? Can you really consider yourself to be a devout Christian if you are against this therapy?

Do non-theists feel like the banning of this therapy is an injustice, or is it for the best that this therapy is banned?

jgh7 wrote: Numerous states are seeking to ban this therapy which is aimed at converting gay youths to be straight.

This therapy seems like a non-violent proactive way at trying to correct sin. Do Christians feel like the banning of this therapy is an injustice? Would Jesus have supported this non-violent therapy as the best method for helping gays to overcome their sin? Can you really consider yourself to be a devout Christian if you are against this therapy?

Do non-theists feel like the banning of this therapy is an injustice, or is it for the best that this therapy is banned?

I think consenting adults, if they want the option of conversion therapy, have every right to seek it if it is available. The trouble is that it is most often enforced by parents or church leadership on adolescents, who may not want it.

It is anything but 'non violent'. Desensitization with electric shock, inducing vomiting, shaming and threatening are common 'interventions'. Since it is universally accepted by all but a few religionists that homosexuality is not a disease condition, reparation therapy has become a religious business based upon religious principles, not evidence based medical practices.

Haven has a thread open in the Science and Religion forum with loads of research on the direct harm caused to individuals who've undergone this 'treatment'. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=28839

If nothing else, it should be universally rejected for the same reasons no doctor will perform trepanation (boring a hole in the skull) for the release of demons. Or going to a barber to be 'bled' for a fever. Ironically, the Christian groups who promote reparation therapy reject modern psychology . . . except when it serves their purposes.

[Replying to post 2 by Hamsaka]

It should be pointed out that the techniques of lobotomy, electric shock, and nausea-inducing drugs in conversion therapy have been outlawed since 1981. Conversion therapy techniques are now limited to counseling, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions such as "prayer and group support and pressure". That's what I got off of it from wikipedia.

So conversion therapy is now primarily based on talking and persuasion and not physically harmful intervention. You can obviously still argue that it is mentally harmful.

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

It is medical malpractice at best. It inherently uses coercion. At worst it can be consider torture. It is also not proven to actually be effective. I don't care if it's adults or children there is a reason why we have medical regulations. This is no better than. Going to a back alley plastic surgeon and getting cement injections.

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

This therapy seems like a non-violent proactive way at trying to correct sin.

Conversion therapy does not correct sin because being gay is not a sin. It is a condition in which a person is sexually attracted to others of the same sex. It is only engaging in same sex acts that is sinful and any therapy that removes the temptation of commit these sins is helpful, but if someone has engaged in gay sex before the therapy his guilt is not removed. He must acknowledge his sin and believe in Christ is he wants to be forgiven. A gay person's real need is not to be made straight but to have his sins forgiven. This article will explain it better than I can:

http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cro ... hange.html

Priests and parents can already fill the role of tending to gay youth, and the laws in those states has no impact on that. It only prevents doctors and shrinks, who i do not agree are the best method of spiritual needs anyway

Regardless, not every gay teen will be Christian or want this done, so you're still talking about coercion whether it's genuine torture or not. I also don't see any evidence it works in which case it's just harassing these poor kids for nothing. I'm sorry but how can you not see that if a person reports consistent and exclusive same sex attractions from the time of puberty, they are clearly created this way or at least have no control over it?

You probably underestimate the impact of "group pressure" and other forms of shaming. Guess who gets blamed when it doesn't work? The gay kid of course. The mere existence of these programs encourages parents to be abusive. Even when not physically harmful, the research indicates the psychological toll is significant. I figure this is because unlike sins such as theft, there is no overcoming the homosexual orientation. Imagine then what a hopeless battle this 'therapy' subjects them to

We need to stop turning young gay people and their friends away from the church. Give them love and not rejection so they can come to know God's plan for them

[Replying to post 6 by master_blaster]

If homosexuality is a sin, then I don't see how therapy would not be advocated by Christians.

Sin is meant to be overcome. Not advocating therapy seems like conceding that this sin of homosexuality can not be overcome.

Wouldn't Christians keep a hopeful outlook that this therapy can actually change homosexuals to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

If this therapy is not a good solution, then perhaps Christians should just concede that there is no solution for overcomming the sin of homosexuality, be it orientation or homosexual sex.

If this therapy is a bad strategy, then what is a good strategy for helping someone to overcome the sin of homosexuality?

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

perhaps Christians should just concede that there is no solution for overcomming the sin of homosexuality, be it orientation or homosexual sex

Jesus Christ died to atone for all sins, including that of engaging in homosexual activity.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Homosexual orientation is not a sin; it is a condition which causes people to be tempted to commit a specific sin. Successful conversion therapy can remove the temptation but provides no forgiveness if such sins have already been committed.

Did you check the link in my previous post? It leads to an article written by a man who is describes himself as a former homosexual. Because of his first hand experience he knows more about the subject than either of us. If you really want to understand the subject you should read what he has to say.

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/f ... -thousands



I am just saying, the ship kind of sailed on this. No one is even pretending to be ex-gay any more. Hopeful is one thing, 'treatment' that never works and causes psychological harm is another.

Now let me ask, if this 'therapy' and overall ill treatment drives hundreds of gay kids a year to suicide, is that your idea of Christian? Is that saving their souls? Is not tormenting minors a sin? There comes a point when intervention does far more harm than good. Even if that's not your intent, i think there's a very fine line between pressuring someone to deny the urges they feel constantly, and pushing them over the edge.


I think the dilemma many Christians face is that if the orientation cannot be overcome, it's not a humane expectation that they never act on it. So we feel we can't give an inch, just like we can't concede the world is over 5,000 years old and noah's ark is an allegory. The difference here is our unwillingness to face reality harms young gay people. It's really difficult to deny that when you look at the rates of mental illness, substance abuse, and suicide.

You're entitled to believe whatever, but they need to be left alone

puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

perhaps Christians should just concede that there is no solution for overcomming the sin of homosexuality, be it orientation or homosexual sex

Jesus Christ died to atone for all sins, including that of engaging in homosexual activity.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Homosexual orientation is not a sin; it is a condition which causes people to be tempted to commit a specific sin. Successful conversion therapy can remove the temptation but provides no forgiveness if such sins have already been committed.

Did you check the link in my previous post? It leads to an article written by a man who is describes himself as a former homosexual. Because of his first hand experience he knows more about the subject than either of us. If you really want to understand the subject you should read what he has to say.

I see you have the word 'homosexual' in your scripture verse.

Were you not aware that such a word did not exist when this was written (yet there you have it) and that there are arguments that can be made that Paul is talking about temple prostitution, not homosexuality in the first place?

But you go right on and claim that homosexuals that are with the ones they love, just like me except that I'm hetero, are sinning. How dare they get to do something that I charish and hold dear, that is just for us straights. The gays have no business being with the one they love. I almost forgot, 'because Paul might have said that it's a sin'!!!!!!