Christian-Sponsored Hatred for Gays

[Jagella]

Do you support Christian hatred for gays?

I was inspired to broach this topic after reading a column in the January 2020 issue of Scientific American. The column written by the editors is entitled Time's Up for "Anti-Gay Therapy." According to those editors:

Although medical and psychological associations have asked explicitly that Congress and state governments ban anti-gay conversion (by Christians), there has been a backlash from (Christian) groups like the Liberty Council, which promotes "evangelical values."

The column condemns the "detestable practice" of the attempt by many Christians to alter a person's homosexuality because the practice does "irreparable harm" to people. Forty-two percent of a subgroup who have had this "therapy" inflicted on them have committed suicide.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

Since The Almighty is biblically, the divine "legislator" He is not obliged to give a reason for his decisions.

If God can't justify his actions then he doesn't deserve the position. It is far more likely that human beings are expressing their own prejudices by attributing them to the will of God.

[otseng]

I consider worship to be one of the most pointless activities ever devised by human beings. Any being who demands or responds to acts of worship is not worthy of it anyway.

Everyone worships something. For some reason it's very hard for humans to not worship something. For most people, what people worship is an object that is practically in everyone's pocket. When it signals us, we must immediately attend to it. We look to it for our livelihood and to give our sense of worth. We will spend a significant amount of our time watching it, listening and talking to it. We spend a large portion of our money on it. We cannot imagine living our life without it and would feel empty and lost without it.

[Tcg]

Everyone worships something.

I don't. I've found nothing that deserves worship.


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

I consider worship to be one of the most pointless activities ever devised by human beings. Any being who demands or responds to acts of worship is not worthy of it anyway.

Everyone worships something. For some reason it's very hard for humans to not worship something. For most people, what people worship is an object that is practically in everyone's pocket. When it signals us, we must immediately attend to it. We look to it for our livelihood and to give our sense of worth. We will spend a significant amount of our time watching it, listening and talking to it. We spend a large portion of our money on it. We cannot imagine living our life without it and would feel empty and lost without it.

So are you suggesting that even Christians are worshiping their smart phones?

Just for the record. I don't even own one.

[Jagella]

Relatives of criminals rarely support the execution of their family members and that irrespective of whether they merit the punishment.

And rightly so! Capital punishment is a barbarism that should be done away with.

I'm not suggesting your brothers are criminals...

You can believe whatever you want, but if you condone executing gays (or anybody else), then I can tell you that not only are you morally wrong, but your immoral position is based on your interpretation of the Bible.

...my point us that the emotional involvement often overides rationale thinking.

"Emotional involvement" and logic are not mutually exclusive. My logic is that it makes no sense to execute or persecute gays. Homosexuals are generally good people who live in harmony with others. Their sexual activities are for the most part harmless.

Whether one judges something as "morally excellent" is of course subjective, I have simply shared my personal view on biblical law.

Primitive tribal leaders created "Biblical law," and when they did create it, they obviously did not have the interests of other people in mind. Why or how they came up with such barbaric and stupid rules, I don't believe we'll ever know. Fortunately, we have moved beyond their barbarism, and today we have much better ethics. We become more moral as we leave the Bible behind, and I say good riddance!

[FWI]

Are you actually suggesting that it's the sexual orientation of the minor that is the real problem? If not, then I have no quarrel, but don't understand your point.

In the OP, as related to suicide among those who had "sexual orientation change efforts performed" it was claimed that 42% committed suicide. However, there was no verifiable reference material supplied to support this claim. So, my point was to show that a LGBTQ individual (under 18 years old) was between 200 to 500% more likely to attempt suicide and be affected by the consequences of such an attempt (without sexual orientation change efforts being performed), than a heterosexual counterpart. Where, the statistical information I supplied shows that a LGBTQ minor would be better off having sexual orientation change efforts performed, than not (as related to attempted suicides and their consequences)…Therefore, as related to the reality of attempted suicides among minors, the worst of the problem is related to sexual orientation and the statistics support this!

What do you think the root problem is?

The root of the problem clearly points to mental health issues, where, the minor is confused on the correct understandings of what is right and what isn't…This would also relate to certain "feelings" that seem out of place for the individual.

Are these minors attempting suicide because they are attracted to others or because they are under peer pressure to be straight?

Peer pressure has been with mankind for thousands of years and affects both the adolescent and adults, in one way or another and affects both the religious and non-religious. So, this reality cannot be used to explain away mental health issues. Because, responding to peer pressure is a part of human nature! However, a Pew research in 2013, asked LGBTQ individuals about peer pressure or acceptance in society and only 1% stated that there was no acceptance of their sexual orientation…

We also should be able to realize that sexual desires don't appear until early puberty and peer pressures arrive sooner than that…So, it seems that certain minors are attempting suicide (at a much higher rate), because of desires, which are not the norm! However, it has become clear that trying to claim the opposite is true and teach that it is normal to have such desires has not curtailed the problem…Which again, points to mental health issues.

Rather than trying to "re-educate" LGBTQ individuals, I think we should be putting a massive effort into re-educating the public based on actual facts not religious baloney with no support other than 'well, it's written in this book'.

Well, it seems that re-education is OK for your beliefs, but not for the beliefs of others…This seems to be a clear example that the problem will not be going away anytime soon. This is a sad situation for the human beings who will be harmed, either physically and/or mentally, because they are denied from getting the help they need. Yet, this also seems to be the norm, where the ones that are suffering aren't that important. It's seems that it's the activism of the issue that is being pushed to the forefront and not the problem…Thus, it seems that "once gay, always gay" is the issue being pushed. This again, is a sad situation…

[Tcg]

The root of the problem clearly points to mental health issues, where, the minor is confused on the correct understandings of what is right and what isn't…

Not according to the APA:

• APA Reiterates Strong Opposition to Conversion Therapy
  
  Washington, D.C. – In the wake of recent popular entertainment portrayals of conversion therapy, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) today reiterates its long-standing opposition to the practice. APA made clear with its 1998 position statement that “APA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as “reparative� or “conversion� therapy, that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or is based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his or her homosexual orientation.�
  
  APA expanded on that position with a statement in 2013: “The American Psychiatric Association does not believe that same-sex orientation should or needs to be changed, and efforts to do so represent a significant risk of harm by subjecting individuals to forms of treatment which have not been scientifically validated and by undermining self-esteem when sexual orientation fails to change. No credible evidence exists that any mental health intervention can reliably and safely change sexual orientation; nor, from a mental health perspective does sexual orientation need to be changed"
  
  https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/new ... on-therapy
  
  <bolding mine>

Tcg

[SallyF]

The root of the problem clearly points to mental health issues, where, the minor is confused on the correct understandings of what is right and what isn't…

Not according to the APA:

• APA Reiterates Strong Opposition to Conversion Therapy
  
  Washington, D.C. – In the wake of recent popular entertainment portrayals of conversion therapy, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) today reiterates its long-standing opposition to the practice. APA made clear with its 1998 position statement that “APA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as “reparative� or “conversion� therapy, that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or is based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his or her homosexual orientation.�
  
  APA expanded on that position with a statement in 2013: “The American Psychiatric Association does not believe that same-sex orientation should or needs to be changed, and efforts to do so represent a significant risk of harm by subjecting individuals to forms of treatment which have not been scientifically validated and by undermining self-esteem when sexual orientation fails to change. No credible evidence exists that any mental health intervention can reliably and safely change sexual orientation; nor, from a mental health perspective does sexual orientation need to be changed"
  
  https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/new ... on-therapy
  
  <bolding mine>

Tcg

These "scriptures" are held up against the above science.

But not a soul EVER demonstrates that any version of "God" is behind the so-called "scriptures".

In the absence of "God", they are nothing more than the misanthropic bigotry of the men who wrote them.

The meaning of the "scriptures" is clear.

In my view, distorting the clear meaning is denying "God" ...

Or admitting that "God" had nothing to do with the "scriptures".

[benchwarmer]

Are you actually suggesting that it's the sexual orientation of the minor that is the real problem? If not, then I have no quarrel, but don't understand your point.

In the OP, as related to suicide among those who had "sexual orientation change efforts performed" it was claimed that 42% committed suicide. However, there was no verifiable reference material supplied to support this claim. So, my point was to show that a LGBTQ individual (under 18 years old) was between 200 to 500% more likely to attempt suicide and be affected by the consequences of such an attempt (without sexual orientation change efforts being performed), than a heterosexual counterpart. Where, the statistical information I supplied shows that a LGBTQ minor would be better off having sexual orientation change efforts performed, than not (as related to attempted suicides and their consequences)…Therefore, as related to the reality of attempted suicides among minors, the worst of the problem is related to sexual orientation and the statistics support this!

No, the statistics do not support that. We actually don't know for sure what the problem is based on these statistics, but which seems more likely:

A minor commits (or attempts to commit) suicide because:

1) They are attracted to someone.

2) They are told their feelings are not 'natural' or normal and face pressure to conform to their average peers who are straight.

Seems pretty obvious to me. The simple act of attraction makes someone feel good until they have a reason to question this attraction. Where do these questions come from? You guessed it, societal pressures often based on religious ideas that condemn same sex attraction.

All the statistics tell us is that non straight individuals have a higher suicide rate. The actual root cause is not clearly defined, but it seems a ridiculous leap in logic to assume attraction is the cause. Stress, fear, anxiety, etc. from not conforming to what other people are telling you seems far more likely a reason to consider committing suicide.

What do you think the root problem is?

The root of the problem clearly points to mental health issues, where, the minor is confused on the correct understandings of what is right and what isn't…This would also relate to certain "feelings" that seem out of place for the individual.

Well, I strongly disagree and your opinion clearly shows your religious bias rather than any scientific supported causes.

How in the world did you leap to mental health issues? Who told you that being attracted to someone is a mental health issue? I guess we are all mentally ill then.

Are these minors attempting suicide because they are attracted to others or because they are under peer pressure to be straight?

Peer pressure has been with mankind for thousands of years and affects both the adolescent and adults, in one way or another and affects both the religious and non-religious. So, this reality cannot be used to explain away mental health issues.

You are just assuming a mental health issue with no factual evidence.

Not all peer pressure is equal. The peer pressure to wear nice clothes is far different than the peer pressure to be attracted to the 'right' kind of people. One may get you irritated looks or some mild badgering, the other can result in physical and/or mental abuse.

Rather than trying to "re-educate" LGBTQ individuals, I think we should be putting a massive effort into re-educating the public based on actual facts not religious baloney with no support other than 'well, it's written in this book'.

Well, it seems that re-education is OK for your beliefs, but not for the beliefs of others…

Notice I said 'actual facts'. I realize some religious folks are not interested in these when pushing their agenda, but I'm not suggesting a campaign of disinformation here.

There's a vast difference in teaching children things based on religious faith and teaching them things based on verifiable facts. You can believe the Earth is flat all you want, but any attempt to teach this to children should be squashed by those with the actual facts. This applies to all areas of knowledge.

Case in point, labeling people with attractions to the same sex as mentally ill is simply a belief driven opinion not based on any facts presented so far.

[Jagella]

We can disagree on positions and still respect each other...
...No, I do not "repudiate" anything in the Bible.

Frankly, I cannot think of anything that is more disrespectful to a person than to refuse to repudiate a law that mandates that that that person should be executed if she or he engages in harmless sex. You really cannot have it both ways. If you truly respect people, then you should value them and value their lives and oppose any unjust and unnecessary threats to their lives.

The Bible is a factor, but persecution of gays cannot be tied solely to the Bible.

Other factors in the persecution of gays are irrelevant to this discussion. We are discussing how Christianity, Judaism, and the Bible can lead to such persecution.

It is tragic when anyone commits suicide. But, just because something can lead to suicide does not mean we should completely reject it. Teenage dating and breaking up can result in suicide. Does that mean we should outlaw all teenage dating?

I see your point, but I don't think that teenage dating can be fairly compared to anti-gay therapy. The difference is that teenage dating in itself probably does not cause suicide. Anti-gay therapy, by contrast, evidently does cause suicide in a direct way. If teenage dating posed as much of a risk of suicide as anti-gay therapy, then yes, teenage dating should be banned!

I think the main point I should make in this post is that you have avowed that you do not repudiate the Biblical mandate to execute sexually-active homosexuals. So we see how Christianity often does lead to harmful, antisocial attitudes in believers. As a free-thinking atheist, I can and do repudiate any barbaric laws in the Bible or anywhere else. My secular morality is a morality of freedom, harmony, reason, and fair-play. While I think you are a generally moral person, your religious beliefs hobble your morality preventing it from progressing to a higher level of civilized thinking. Please understand that have a choice to change, though. If we all work together aiming to create a better world and put the evils of the past behind us forever, then I think we have a chance to do so.