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Replying to Volbrigade]
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
I don't claim to understand the function of "metacosm" either. But then, since the word "metacosm" is an entirely made up word, that is understandable. What we are dealing with here is pure double speak. In other words, grade A make believe.
You're essentially suggesting you believe that magic occurred.
Volbrigade wrote:
"Magic"? Did you say "magic"?
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Those whose minds are made up will likely remain unpersuaded by any arguments for the Deity of Christ. For the benefit of the open-minded, however:
Since we know that the universe had a beginning, and is thus finite in terms of both time and space; and that “everything that HAS A BEGINNING must have a CAUSE�; then it is reasonable — not “magical� — to infer that the Cause for our spacial, temporal reality must reside outside of it.
And, owing to the spectacular evidence of detailed, intricate design and order in our universe, it is further reasonable — not “magical� — to infer that the cause of our reality has both Mind, Will, and Intelligence.
First, it should be pointed out that the story at hand, the only access to information concerning the death of Jesus that we have to consider, has been entirely provided by his followers. So what we have to work with is made up entirely from the point of view of what his followers believed, or at least wrote, years after the events in question were supposed to have occurred. The Gospels were written to convince and convert.
These accounts insist that the executed man was later seen, touched and conversed with. And that he subsequently physically lifted up off of the ground and flew up into the air, disappearing into the clouds. Given the nature of the claims, a certain skepticism seems fully warranted.
The written accounts that we have available to us for consideration are derived ONLY from those who believed, or at least claimed, that a seemingly impossible event occurred. No written accounts, NO MENTION AT ALL, of the events in question were made by
anyone at the time the events were supposed to have occurred. The earliest written account of the story of the risen Christ occurs in 1 Corinthians, written by Paul circa 55 AD, or about a quarter of a century after the time the Gospels indicate that Jesus was executed. The Gospels themselves would not be written until years later still. And the author of the earliest written account, Paul in 1 Corinthians, was himself a personal witness to NONE of the ministry of Jesus, or of his execution.
So let's consider the facts provided, such as they are, by the Gospel accounts:
1. The body of Jesus was given to Joseph and Nicodemus by Pilate on the Friday before Passover.
2. Joseph and Nicodemus were followers of Jesus.
3. Joseph took the body of Jesus to his newly made personal family crypt to wash and prepare it because the sepulchre was conveniently near to the place where Jesus was crucified.
4. The followers of Jesus left the tomb, covering the entrance with a large stone.
5. The next day the chief priests took possession of the closed tomb which they did not open and inspect.
6. It was a high holy day.
6. The following day the tomb was discovered to be empty.
These details are taken directly from the Gospels. Dispute them if you wish.
As we can see from the sequence of events provided by the Gospels themselves, the chief Jewish priests, concerned that the followers of Jesus intended to relocate the body from Joseph's tomb and to then spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead, took possession of the tomb of Joseph. But, given the nature of the holy day, they did not open and inspect the tomb for the body. The tomb proved to be empty on the following morning. Christians proclaim the empty tomb to be proof that the corpse of Jesus came back to life and left of it's own accord.
So we are faced with a story of an empty grave and a missing corpse. Given the known nature of a dead body, and what a dead body is capable of, is it more likely that the missing body is the result of actions taken by the living? Or is it more likely that the body is missing as a result of actions taken by the corpse? And of course,
this second possibility is the very LEAST probable explanation. An explanation which has no actual probability for being true at all in fact.
It's not believable. Unless of course you chose to interject the claim of magic into the story. In which case one may proclaim the truth of whatever flight of fancy happens to appeal to them.
So we return to the first possible explanation. Is the missing body better explained as the result of actions taken by the living? Who in fact, were the last individuals to be in clear physical possession of the body of Jesus?
And the answer is, HIS DISCIPLES. Did the disciples have the means, motive and opportunity to have relocated the body elsewhere?
In fact the disciples already had LEGAL physical possession of the body, and every LEGAL right to inter it where ever they saw fit.
So the solution to the entire question of the empty tomb appears to be easily answered. The Jewish priests took possession of AN EMPTY TOMB. The body was already gone. Because Joseph's tomb was never intended to be the final resting place for Jesus. Joseph's tomb was merely used as a convenient private place to wash and prepare the body; "for the sepulchre was nigh at hand" (John 19:42) to the place where Jesus was executed. After which it began it's journey to it's true final resting place. How do we know this?
Because the tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning.
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
The mystery of the empty tomb, and the source of the rumor of the "risen" Jesus can clearly be explained in these verses. Because this is EXACTLY what occurred. The tomb proved to be empty, and the disciples began spreading the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead. And that explanation, that the corpse came back to life and subsequently flew away, has no realistic probability for being true whatsoever.
Volbrigade wrote:
I maintain that it is reasonable — not “magical� — to accept that an omniscient God, who is outside of space and time, and “knows the end from the beginning� would devise a plan for His creation in which “all things work to the good for as many as love Him, and are called according to His purpose.� A plan which satisfies both our capacity for free will, and His divine sovereignty; the working out of which occurs in dimensional regions beyond our senses or measurement, in addition to our own physical reality.
Magicians are also known as "congerers." They "conger" things up, apparently out of thin air. Or so it is meant to seem. But only the dull witted actually believe that the slight of hand tricks of the magician are actual examples of supernatural powers. In modern times we are entertained by the ability of the magician to confound us with cleverly conceived of tricks.
Because we live in a world of physical reality. And in a world of physical reality, there are physical laws which may not be overcome. Science is all about discovering just what those laws are. Make believe and magic, imagining those things outside of physical reality, go hand in hand. And in make believe there are
no physical constraints. Make believe is only limited by the depths of one's imagination.
It's easy to conger beliefs and declarations of fact out of thin air of course. It's far harder to establish that these beliefs have any physical reality however. Which is why there is such a vast divide between modern science, between the modern WORKING technology based on that science, and ancient make believe and superstition.
The story of the risen Jesus is not credible by it's very nature. And it can be fully explained naturally, even within the context of the story provided to convince others of it's truth. But we are in the 21st century now, and need not be gullible children unquestioningly accepting stories of flying reindeer, and flying reanimated corpses, as undeniably true.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.
