why am i on this forum?

[florin3k3]

i don't believe in God nor am i a person to say that God doesn't exist. i simply don't know the answer nor does anybody on earth. if i don't believe in him, it doesnt mean he doesnt exist.
that is my problem. if he does exist and i don't believe, i'm pretty much screwd if he doesnt and i was a "believer" i would be living my life in a lie.
i can't believe in something simply on faith but there's always that question in the back of my head "what if i'm wrong?" what if out of the 2 choises i'm on the wrong side?and by wrong i mean that he does exist and, according to the bible, i go to hell. but thats the thing with faith, you either have it or you don't. and i don't. and i can't really see that ever changing.
that's what i hate about religion. i have to burn in eternal fire or whatever happens in hell just because i don't believe in something that i believe to be unlikely. the way i see it, the ancient greeks believed in zeus and the the other gods and lived their lives in fear of them but that didn't make it true.
i think the bible was written so that people had something to fear when considering doing something morally wrong. they wanted people to consider the consiquences.
but again, there's always that voice in my head.
i really would like to believe but every time i have these unanswered question:
-lets say u believe but a member of your family doesnt. that means they're going to hell. how can u love a god that will put that family member through eternal agony?
-how can God allow all the crimes, rapes, torture, famine, etc to happen?
-how can God allow the other 77% of people that aren't christians to go to hell? i mean, seriously, what are the chances that a person born in a mulim, buddhist, hindu, etc. country, is going to be a christian. it's how u are brought up. i'm guessing most christians, had they been born in japan, would be buddhists.
-why should i go to hell even if i'm a good person just because i dont believe in God?i could go and confess in a church but whats the point of confessing sins, going to church if i dont genuinely believe?

the other thing i don't like is that:
- all people sin. how is a christian better than me?

let me give you an example: at work, they hire a hot new secretary. there are 2 guys working there also. one christian the other not.i can guarrantee that both of them will have sinfull thoughts:) so the christian guy goes to church the next sunday and confesses. all is forgiven! it doesn't matter that the other guy realises afterwards that it was wrong to have such thoughts and is sorry.
same thing for hitting, killing, stealing etc.
they both do the same thing, they are both sorry, but one is damned for eternity and one is eternally happy or whatever.

so in conclusion i'm here,as most of you are, to see if anybody can answer my questions

i'm all ears:)

[otseng]

Welcome to the forum.

You have a bunch of good questions. And it'd take an entire book to address them all. (Hmm, maybe I just might do that...)

But, I'll answer most of them quickly here.

if he doesnt and i was a "believer" i would be living my life in a lie.

Not necessarily a "lie". A lie is when you know the truth and give/live an alternate position.

i can't believe in something simply on faith but there's always that question in the back of my head "what if i'm wrong?"

That's what faith is. But, take comfort in that practically everything is this way. Did I marry the right person? Did I choose the right career? Should I have eaten that third donut?

that's what i hate about religion. i have to burn in eternal fire or whatever happens in hell just because i don't believe in something that i believe to be unlikely.

And what I don't get is why non-Christians are so preoccupied by hell. If they don't believe in it, then why do they constantly complain about it?

i think the bible was written so that people had something to fear when considering doing something morally wrong. they wanted people to consider the consiquences.

Highly doubtful that a book written so that people would fear would be so popular and universal. There has to be some other reason.

but again, there's always that voice in my head.

Yes there is. It's in all of our heads.

-lets say u believe but a member of your family doesnt. that means they're going to hell. how can u love a god that will put that family member through eternal agony?

If hell doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter. If God doesn't exist, again it doesn't matter.

-how can God allow all the crimes, rapes, torture, famine, etc to happen?

God also allows love, marriage, service, compassion, breakfast to happen. Bad things happen not as a result of God putting his stamp of approval on them, but that it is a result of his gift of freewill.

-how can God allow the other 77% of people that aren't christians to go to hell?

If God and hell doesn't exist, then it's a moot point. If God exists, then he can call the shots, not us.

i mean, seriously, what are the chances that a person born in a mulim, buddhist, hindu, etc. country, is going to be a christian.

Put it this way, I would say a lot of "Christians" in western countries would also end up in hell. Just because they go to church is meaningless.

it's how u are brought up.

Myself, I was not brought up in a Christian family, but in an agnostic family.

i'm guessing most christians, had they been born in japan, would be buddhists.

Actually, I know of very few truly religious Japanese. They're more cultural Buddhist than practicing.

-why should i go to hell even if i'm a good person just because i dont believe in God?

If you're entirely sinless, then you can go to heaven.

i could go and confess in a church but whats the point of confessing sins, going to church if i dont genuinely believe?

No point at all.

the other thing i don't like is that:
- all people sin. how is a christian better than me?

Christians are just as sinful as the rest of the world. Don't let their outward appearance fool you.

let me give you an example: at work, they hire a hot new secretary. there are 2 guys working there also. one christian the other not.i can guarrantee that both of them will have sinfull thoughts:)

Yes, they'll both be tempted by the hot secretary. Hopefully though the Christian's first thought will not be how to get in bed with her.

[florin3k3]

Welcome to the forum..

thanks

That's what faith is. But, take comfort in that practically everything is this way. Did I marry the right person? Did I choose the right career? Should I have eaten that third donut?.

having doubts and faith isn't exactly the same. i mean, i choose my wife based upon my interaction with her. the career based on salary, satisfaction etc. and the donut on taste. i can't choose God based upon ANYTHING but faith. do u agree?

And what I don't get is why non-Christians are so preoccupied by hell. If they don't believe in it, then why do they constantly complain about it? .

i am preocupied by it exactly because i am a non-christian. if i were a christian i'd probably be off in africa helping the stariving,needy etc. but don't confuse me with a person that says God doesn't exist. i'm saying simply that i really can't get that faith you have. you either have it or u dont i guess.but seeing as how my not believing in him doesnt mean he isnt so....that's why i'm so preoccupied by hell :)but the fear of going to hell is not enough for me to have faith. the ancient greeks had the same faith in zeus,apollo,etc. lived their lives in fear of the gods. do u not consider them foolish to have believed such rubbish? dont u ever ask yourself how in the world could they ever believe such crazy stuff?

Highly doubtful that a book written so that people would fear would be so popular and universal. There has to be some other reason..

that same book also promises eternal life that'll make it popular

Yes there is. It's in all of our heads..

yeah, it's our conscious

If hell doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter. If God doesn't exist, again it doesn't matter..

ur kinda avoiding the real issue. i'm saying what if it does. it really matters then, right? knowing they would be eternally damned

[quoteGod also allows love, marriage, service, compassion, breakfast to happen. Bad things happen not as a result of God putting his stamp of approval on them, but that it is a result of his gift of freewill..[/quote]
an omnipotent god know the future, right? supposing he does, doenst it mean that when he created us he knew we would do all these things? why make us in the first place? imagine if u were one of those kids in africa or a woman being raped and left pregnant and not be let by your religion to have an abortion...

If God and hell doesn't exist, then it's a moot point. If God exists, then he can call the shots, not us..

doenst exactly make him a loving god

Myself, I was not brought up in a Christian family, but in an agnostic family..

in what country?

Actually, I know of very few truly religious Japanese. They're more cultural Buddhist than practicing..

my point is that it would be very difficult for one to become a christian just because it's not a common thing there. u tend to believe in the god that the region u live in believes in. americans born from now on will naturally have a tendancy to be christians because they will be close to it and not buddhism or hindu etc.

If you're entirely sinless, then you can go to heaven..

from what i know of the bible (not much) no man is without sin. right?

Christians are just as sinful as the rest of the world. Don't let their outward appearance fool you..

yeah but they get "get out of jail free" cards

Yes, they'll both be tempted by the hot secretary. Hopefully though the Christian's first thought will not be how to get in bed with her.

the answer i was hoping for. the thing is that it really doesnt matter does it? he can get into bed with her AND her sister all he has to do is go to church and give a confession and all is forgiven. all he has to do is be sorry...

i'd like to hear your thoughts

[otseng]

having doubts and faith isn't exactly the same. i mean, i choose my wife based upon my interaction with her. the career based on salary, satisfaction etc. and the donut on taste. i can't choose God based upon ANYTHING but faith. do u agree?

The differentiation is between "faith" and "blind faith". Blind faith is when there is no logical reason to believe in it. And I do not believe that faith in God is blind faith. There are certainly logical reasons to believe in it. But, I cannot prove that God exists. The area between the logical reasons and where I believe is bridged by the area of faith.

i'm saying simply that i really can't get that faith you have. you either have it or u dont i guess.

I don't subscribe to that. I'm not a Calvinist. People are not left to "fate" to determine if they have faith or not.

but the fear of going to hell is not enough for me to have faith. the ancient greeks had the same faith in zeus,apollo,etc. lived their lives in fear of the gods.

And it shouldn't. Jesus never threatened non-believers with hell. Only people he threatened were the religous hypocrites.

do u not consider them foolish to have believed such rubbish? dont u ever ask yourself how in the world could they ever believe such crazy stuff?

There are many things that I wonder how can people believe such crazy stuff.

that same book also promises eternal life that'll make it popular

But not eternal life for everyone. So, it has to be more than that.

Yes there is. It's in all of our heads..

yeah, it's our conscious

Yes.

ur kinda avoiding the real issue. i'm saying what if it does. it really matters then, right? knowing they would be eternally damned

If you believe hell exists, then, yes, it would matter. If you don't, then it would not matter.

Here's another way of looking at it. If hell is real, that doesn't show that God is not real. As a matter of fact, if hell is real, then that implies God is real.

an omnipotent god know the future, right? supposing he does, doenst it mean that when he created us he knew we would do all these things?

That's why it'd take a book to answer these. But, to summarize, just because God knows the future, that doesn't mean you don't have freewill.

why make us in the first place? imagine if u were one of those kids in africa or a woman being raped and left pregnant and not be let by your religion to have an abortion...

God originally made Adam and Eve as perfect beings. He did not make any horrible situations found on Earth now. And why attribute the terrible things to God? Why not the devil?

If God and hell doesn't exist, then it's a moot point. If God exists, then he can call the shots, not us..

doenst exactly make him a loving god

Well, he's more than just a loving God. He's also a just and holy God. Holiness is one of the main attributes of God. What do we call God's spirit? Holy Spirit. What about the word of God? The Holy Bible. So, though God is loving, he is also holy. And hell is a place where unholy people would go. But, if it simply ended there, it would be justifiable to question God's love. But, God has also provided a way for anyone to be completely holy in God's eyes.

Myself, I was not brought up in a Christian family, but in an agnostic family..

in what country?

Since I was 4, I have been in the US.

my point is that it would be very difficult for one to become a christian just because it's not a common thing there.

I won't disagree with you. But, that doesn't mean Christianity is either true or false.

u tend to believe in the god that the region u live in believes in. americans born from now on will naturally have a tendancy to be christians because they will be close to it and not buddhism or hindu etc.

I will agree that they will have a tendency to be a cultural Christian, but I'm not so sure how real their faith will be. But, why would it matter?

If you're entirely sinless, then you can go to heaven..

from what i know of the bible (not much) no man is without sin. right?

Just taking the 10th commandment, if anyone has coveted, then they have sinned. I would think just on this one commandment alone, practically everyone has sinned.

yeah but they get "get out of jail free" cards

Well, here's what the Bible says:
Hbr 10:26-27For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yes, they'll both be tempted by the hot secretary. Hopefully though the Christian's first thought will not be how to get in bed with her.

the answer i was hoping for. the thing is that it really doesnt matter does it? he can get into bed with her AND her sister all he has to do is go to church and give a confession and all is forgiven. all he has to do is be sorry...

My point is that Christians are not immune to temptations. But, their actions should not succumb to those temptations.

[Goat]

having doubts and faith isn't exactly the same. i mean, i choose my wife based upon my interaction with her. the career based on salary, satisfaction etc. and the donut on taste. i can't choose God based upon ANYTHING but faith. do u agree?

The differentiation is between "faith" and "blind faith". Blind faith is when there is no logical reason to believe in it. And I do not believe that faith in God is blind faith. There are certainly logical reasons to believe in it. But, I cannot prove that God exists. The area between the logical reasons and where I believe is bridged by the area of faith.

When I look at the reasons that many people give as logical reasons for believing in God, I see many assumptions are not provable at all. If you can not prove or test for an assumption, how is that logical? And if that is the case, the difference between blind faith and faith disappear.

[T-mash]

The differentiation is between "faith" and "blind faith". Blind faith is when there is no logical reason to believe in it..

I agree. For example religion is blind faith, because there is no logical reason to believe in any. Faith in humanity is not 'blind faith' because there is a very good logical reason to believe in it.

[otseng]

When I look at the reasons that many people give as logical reasons for believing in God, I see many assumptions are not provable at all. If you can not prove or test for an assumption, how is that logical? And if that is the case, the difference between blind faith and faith disappear.

Proof is the highest level of belief where there is absolutely no doubt. I do not believe that one can prove that God exists. The level that I hold is that it is more logical that God exists than God does not exist. And I'm willing to debate anyone head-to-head on that if anyone else is willing.

[Goat]

When I look at the reasons that many people give as logical reasons for believing in God, I see many assumptions are not provable at all. If you can not prove or test for an assumption, how is that logical? And if that is the case, the difference between blind faith and faith disappear.

Proof is the highest level of belief where there is absolutely no doubt. I do not believe that one can prove that God exists. The level that I hold is that it is more logical that God exists than God does not exist. And I'm willing to debate anyone head-to-head on that if anyone else is willing.

I wasn't asking for 'proof', I was asking about logical reasons. I want to see those logical reasons.

[otseng]

I wasn't asking for 'proof', I was asking about logical reasons. I want to see those logical reasons.

That I can do. But I only want to do that in a h2h debate. Want to engage in this and take the opposite position that it is more logical to not believe in a god?

[FinalEnigma]

I wasn't asking for 'proof', I was asking about logical reasons. I want to see those logical reasons.

That I can do. But I only want to do that in a h2h debate. Want to engage in this and take the opposite position that it is more logical to not believe in a god?

I'd like to see the logical reasons, but I'm not sure how much I want to shoot myself in the foot.

What kind of format?

I would like to note beforehand however, that I am not a hard atheist, and actually not really an atheist at all.
My position on whether god exists is that the existence of god does not affect me personally(not that it doesn't matter(that apatheism or something), just that it doesn't affect me).
This is a nonexistent position which I've taken to calling extrotheism(outside theism)(Yes, I'm weird). Debate such as this is an academic/scholarly pursuit for me, as I do not feel that the answer directly affects me.

If you would prefer to hold out for someone who is an actual atheist, that's understandable.