The believer's paradox

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McCulloch
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The believer's paradox

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

GentleDove wrote: Conscience, will, mind, logic, purity, righteousness, motives, presuppositions, sanity, intellectual ability, moral faculty, and senses are all being subsumed under the heading "Reason." Reason--by which I mean logic and intellectual ability, and to a certain extent, the senses--is useful and kinda works, but it's corrupted by sin.
This type of argument has been made often by Christian apologists. You cannot trust your own thinking. You a cannot trust your own intellectual ability. You cannot trust human morality. It has all been corrupted by sin. You must abandon your self-centered life and embrace God's will only.

But here is the hitch. In order to come to the conclusion that there even is a God, I must resort to using my own tainted reasoning processes. Then, once convinced in my corrupted mind that God exists, I have to again use my own blighted cogitation to determine which alleged revelations are really from God and which ones are not (Torah, New Testament, Qur'an, Mormon, Urantia ...). Having reached some conclusions on that issue, I must again rely on my own depraved dialectics to choose among competing interpretations.

Pray to God for a sign, they sometimes answer, pray to God for wisdom. Yet, even there, I must interpret the signs and test the spirits, according to my own perverted human wisdom.

Question for debate, If not our own intellectual abilities, what could we possibly turn to, to assess TRUTH?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Post #11

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

GentleDove wrote: Faith in Christ is a matter of the heart, which definitely includes the mind, fallen though it be in my worldview. However, the "heart" in Christianity does not mean only the mind. It also means the will, the spirit, the emotions, and all the immaterial being of the person (who is also, of course, material or body).
You believe in your "heart," which is just a pump after all, that Jesus is all you claim and believe that he is. Individuals of other beliefs feel just as strongly that their beliefs are the true and valid beliefs. Billions of people with conflicting beliefs, most of them therefore entirely wrong in what they believe. Does your mind tell you that Jesus was actually resurrected from the dead, as were the hordes of other dead people who came back to life and wandered the streets of Jerusalem, according to MATTHEW 27:52-53? Does your mind tell you that these were real events which actually occurred? Does that seem probable to you? If so, WHY? And how do you suppose this speaks to the condition of your personal creditability?

Flail

Post #12

Post by Flail »

Although typically 'right on' with his posts, I disagree with McCulloch on this one. Yes, Christianity attempts to put shame upon human reason,logic and common sense as if these attributes were tainted to unreliability. But contrary to the proposition expressed in the OP, the very idea of religion pulls the believer away from reasoned mindfulness. Ritual,chanting,dogma,relics,prayer,holy buildings,holy places,repititions,worship,sacraments,holy books etc etc attempt to take a person away from reason,logic and common sense. The message is 'dont think'...its a 'Stepford' approach. The Catholic sect has the classic approach with perpetual bead prayer practices,specific numbers of meaningless chants performed fingering a necklace....not much thinking required.

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Post #13

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 11:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: You believe in your "heart," which is just a pump after all, that Jesus is all you claim and believe that he is.
No need in all that "pump after all" business. It's quite clear the claimant is using a common phrase to reference one's "emotional center". There's no reason at all to think Miss GentleDove makes a literal claim.

But I'm with ya on...
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: Individuals of other beliefs feel just as strongly that their beliefs are the true and valid beliefs. Billions of people with conflicting beliefs, most of them therefore entirely wrong in what they believe.
That's what gets me. How can we ever know who's right? The only reasonable explanation I can gather is that God would forgive those who get it wrong, but even there, we gotta hope I've got that right. Given the vengeful nature, and the narcissism, I'm practically scared to death I'm gonna end up in trouble.
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: Does your mind tell you that Jesus was actually resurrected from the dead, as were the hordes of other dead people who came back to life and wandered the streets of Jerusalem, according to MATTHEW 27:52-53?
It must be the mind, because the evidence ain't there.
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: Does your mind tell you that these were real events which actually occurred? Does that seem probable to you? If so, WHY? And how do you suppose this speaks to the condition of your personal creditability?
Well done. When one makes claims that assault the senses, they really open themselves up to criticism. We know for a fact that humans create rich, expressive stories, full of much allegory, fiction, and fantastical claims. What we don't know is how a human can be brought back from the dead after three days (among other miracle claims).
Then the more logical conclusion would be that these miracle claims are meant to enrich the tale, and have no basis in reality.

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Post #14

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

joeyknuccione wrote: No need in all that "pump after all" business. It's quite clear the claimant is using a common phrase to reference one's "emotional center". There's no reason at all to think Miss GentleDove makes a literal claim.
There was a time when people absolutely thought that the heart was literally the center of a person's being. You may well be right about Miss GentleDove, but I have learned never to take anything for granted in these discussions.

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Post #15

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: There was a time when people absolutely thought that the heart was literally the center of a person's being. You may well be right about Miss GentleDove, but I have learned never to take anything for granted in these discussions.
I'm cool with that.

Given the notion that many of the Bible's claims are of an ancient understanding, I can see where you'd seek to eliminate this'n as one of 'em.

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Post #16

Post by NEVIIM »

joeyknuccione wrote:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote: There was a time when people absolutely thought that the heart was literally the center of a person's being. You may well be right about Miss GentleDove, but I have learned never to take anything for granted in these discussions.
I'm cool with that.

Given the notion that many of the Bible's claims are of an ancient understanding, I can see where you'd seek to eliminate this'n as one of 'em.
I disagree with the Bible's claims are of ancient understanding..Hmmm...The Bible is as relevant today as it was 4000 years ago. I mean, didn't the United States just end slavery in my great-grandmother's lifetime? Coming out of bondage is coming out of bondage. It's no ancient idea. And the holocaust...in my mother's lifetime? And is an atheist the same as he was in ancient times? This is nothing new. When people are sick do we heal the best we can just like in ancient times. I could go on all day.

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Post #17

Post by GentleDove »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
GentleDove wrote: Faith in Christ is a matter of the heart, which definitely includes the mind, fallen though it be in my worldview. However, the "heart" in Christianity does not mean only the mind. It also means the will, the spirit, the emotions, and all the immaterial being of the person (who is also, of course, material or body).
You believe in your "heart," which is just a pump after all, that Jesus is all you claim and believe that he is.
I see. You are denying my definition of a man's “heart," that it consists of his mind, will, spirit, emotions, and all the immaterial being of the person.

That must be your experience of yourself, that your “heart� consists of a material pump located in your chest, that there is nothing immaterial that makes up your person. Then you attribute it to me, as though your personal experience were universal, that my “heart� consists of only a pump.

It is true that a pump cannot assess the truth of something. I can see why you would be tempted to avoid dealing with my claims regarding the human mind, will, spirit and emotions by dismissing the term I used for those things, as referring to “just a pump.�
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Individuals of other beliefs feel just as strongly that their beliefs are the true and valid beliefs.
I am well aware that everyone feels strongly about his beliefs. (Strangely, even those whose “hearts� are pumps.) I am not trying to convince others to believe in Jesus by the strength of my feelings for Him.
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Billions of people with conflicting beliefs, most of them therefore entirely wrong in what they believe.
I agree; most must be wrong in what they believe. These myriad conflicting beliefs cannot all be true.
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Does your mind tell you that Jesus was actually resurrected from the dead, as were the hordes of other dead people who came back to life and wandered the streets of Jerusalem, according to MATTHEW 27:52-53? Does your mind tell you that these were real events which actually occurred? Does that seem probable to you?
Yes. Actually, more “certain� than “probable.�
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:If so, WHY?
I explained why in my last post to McCulloch, which is much too long to re-post here. Unfortunately, I believe at this moment that it will be nonsense to you. I'm so sorry; I wish I could make it clearer.
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:And how do you suppose this speaks to the condition of your personal creditability?
I assume you mean "credibility," which means "the quality, capability, or power to elicit belief."

Speaks to whom? You? Who can "elicit belief" from a pump, but God?

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Post #18

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 16:
NEVIIM wrote: I disagree with the Bible's claims are of ancient understanding..Hmmm...The Bible is as relevant today as it was 4000 years ago.
Yet the Bible, as a book, is roughly 1500 years old. I consider that "ancient".

The relevance is not what I refer to, but the data contained within.
NEVIIM wrote: I mean, didn't the United States just end slavery in my great-grandmother's lifetime? Coming out of bondage is coming out of bondage. It's no ancient idea.
Yet the Bible indicates God is cool with slavery.
NEVIIM wrote: And the holocaust...in my mother's lifetime?
Hmm. Christians attacking Jews, what a thoroughly modern concept.
NEVIIM wrote: And is an atheist the same as he was in ancient times?
Yep. Still not buying fantastical claims.
NEVIIM wrote: This is nothing new. When people are sick do we heal the best we can just like in ancient times.
Daily Mail wrote: Couple found guilty over the death of their teenage son in faith healing trial.
Nope, nothing new there (save folks finally being punished for neglecting their children over ancient ritualistic belief).
NEVIIM wrote: I could go on all day.
Then you just go right on ahead.

(edit for clarity)

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Post #19

Post by NEVIIM »

Wow. Your ancient history is but a blink of an eye in all creation. Now talk to a paleontologist about what ancient is...4000 years is like yesterday.

Slavery... God definietly not cool with Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. According to the New Testament "do unto others as you would have them" blah blah blah...It's the Gospel.

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Post #20

Post by Cephus »

NEVIIM wrote:Wow. Your ancient history is but a blink of an eye in all creation. Now talk to a paleontologist about what ancient is...4000 years is like yesterday.

Slavery... God definietly not cool with Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. According to the New Testament "do unto others as you would have them" blah blah blah...It's the Gospel.
That only proves you don't understand the Bible. The Bible is quite pro-slavery, it describes who you can enslave, how you must treat them, how to mark them, how you can punish them and how to trick a Jew into becoming a lifetime slave. There is nothing in the Bible which can be taken as being against slavery of any kind.
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