Does Fundamentalism impede learning?

[Zzyzx]

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Does Fundamentalism impede learning?

When I taught college / university geology and Earth science courses, many Fundamentalist Christian students refused to even consider information that conflicted with what their bible or their preacher said. The Earth “was created by god� relatively recently (perhaps 4004 BCE as per Archbishop Ussher’s calculations from genealogy), fossils were “put in rocks by the devil to confuse man�, there was a worldwide flood (in spite of the need for one billion cubic miles of water beyond the Earth’s supply, and in spite of no evidence to indicate that the story is true), etc.

Those students often regurgitated answers on tests to earn a grade, but steadfastly maintained their original ideas (apparently – though they may have changed since, particularly if they pursued the study of sciences).

In these debates we observe Literalists insisting that donkeys and snakes converse with humans, that people can live inside fish, that a lunch bucket lunch can be “blessed� and serve multitudes, that people walk on water, that water magically turns into water, that seas part and storms calm on command, and that dead bodies come back to life after days in the grave – all at least “once upon a time in a land far away�.

We know that religion has persecuted those who seek truthful answers to questions about nature – example Galileo and Socrates – and present anti-education / anti-science / anti-intellectual bent of many fundamentalist religious “leaders� (and their followers).

Question for debate:

Does Fundamentalism impede about nature and the real world we inhabit if the information conflicts with religious "teachings"?

[Zzyzx]

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I didn't say it was "flooded to the tops of mountains." Why did you put that in quotes? : I did say as written but that is in reference to what is written in Genesis. This flood I'm speaking of wasn't the flood of Noah.

The bible says "flooded to the tops of mountains".

What "flood" are YOU talking about and where is it "written"?

[Euphrates]

All superstions about the supernatural impede reason and learning. Science and philosophy could advance more quickly without religion.

You don't think philosophy could be considered superstition about the supernatural?

Also, I think you'd have to do a lot more work to show that religion has had a net hinderance on science and philosophy.

[whirlwind]

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I didn't say it was "flooded to the tops of mountains." Why did you put that in quotes? : I did say as written but that is in reference to what is written in Genesis. This flood I'm speaking of wasn't the flood of Noah.

The bible says "flooded to the tops of mountains".

What "flood" are YOU talking about and where is it "written"?

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation (#2311) of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest: although the works were finished from the foundation (#2602) of the world.

Foundation #2311 themelioo/themelios
Foundation #2602 katabole/kataballo

The noun katabole is connected with the world, kosmos, and therefore the expression should be rendered, "the disruption, or ruin, of the world, clearly referring to the condition indicated in [Gen.1:2] and described in [11 Peter 3:5-6], for the earth was not created tohu [Is.45:18], but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of [Gen.1:2] and confirmed by [11 Pet.3:6], where "the world that then was by the word of God," [Gen.1:1] perished, and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word" were created [Gen.2:4] and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" [11 Pet.3:7] which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of [11 Pet. 3:13].

The disruption of the world is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In [Gen.1:1] we have the founding of the world [Heb.1:10 themeliios] but in [Gen.1:2] we have it's overthrow. ~ E.W. Bullinger

The overthrow, the katalbole, is when the world "became without form and void." [Jeremiah 4:23] It wasn't created that way but became that way.

11 Peter 3:5-7 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water perished: But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Why?

That was the age in which Satan, who had been loved by God, rebelled. He got too big for his red-hot britches! He took many of God's children with him in this usurption of power and the result....the katalbole, the overthrow of that age. The earth was shaken and flooded. Was that when the great land mass split into it's continents? Was that the time the dinosaurs perished and the reason we see animal remains in Nebraska that only now are found in Africa?

That was the great flood we came out of when this present age began as written....

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

He created the world in the beginning...we aren't told when that beginning was but science shows it to be millions of years ago.

1:2 And the earth (was-became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

That was the katalbole and then.....

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Our age began. The present age in which we are proven to see who we follow. Do we listen to the talking serpent, Satan, or our Father?

From the Book of Jasher, which is not Scripture but is quoted twice in the Old Testament [Joshua 10:13 and 11 Samuel 1:18] so it does have validity. Jasher was the son of Caleb, a contemporary of Moses, and he was speaking of the creation....

Jasher 1:4-5 And the abyss fled before the face of the light, and divided between the light and the darkness. So that the face of nature was formed a second time.

[Zzyzx]

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That was the age in which Satan, who had been loved by God, rebelled. He got too big for his red-hot britches! He took many of God's children with him in this usurption of power and the result....the katalbole, the overthrow of that age. The earth was shaken and flooded. Was that when the great land mass split into it's continents? Was that the time the dinosaurs perished and the reason we see animal remains in Nebraska that only now are found in Africa?

That was the great flood we came out of when this present age began as written....

What is the “earthly� evidence of this “flood� (something more than conjecture and ancient tales)?

[Flail]

Fundamentalists impede learning by axiomatically, by definition. It's a big part of why they exist historically.

When they aren't impeding learning, they are distorting truth and making a mockery of thought. Look no farther than this thread for evidence.

Much of the material in the bible about satan's lies was anticipating them: fallacies, sophistry, corrupted methods and agendas. All passing for learning and a very strange definition of knowledge (circular reasoning+emotional commitment).

Oddly enough, credible religion requires almost endless learning, not only in theology and exegesis but in all the social sciences, humanities, arts, and hard sciences. Buet here's the difference: in each case secular experts would recognize and respect the thoughts and participation of the non-fundamentalists (for example, Jesuit Ph.D's in all fields), while the fundamentalists never pass the straight face test outside their own little corner.

Sounds like we have a "yes" response incoming!!

Are we seriously debating the historical accuracy of biblical verses from Genesis???...come on now...

How can one discern which parts of the bible are historically accurate, which from a God and which from a devil? What is the standard by which such distinctions are made?...or does one simply rely on his particular indoctrinator?

[whirlwind]

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That was the age in which Satan, who had been loved by God, rebelled. He got too big for his red-hot britches! He took many of God's children with him in this usurption of power and the result....the katalbole, the overthrow of that age. The earth was shaken and flooded. Was that when the great land mass split into it's continents? Was that the time the dinosaurs perished and the reason we see animal remains in Nebraska that only now are found in Africa?

That was the great flood we came out of when this present age began as written....

What is the “earthly� evidence of this “flood� (something more than conjecture and ancient tales)?

Hi Flail,

You'll have to ask the geologist. All I know is what I see on various documentaries and what I have written in this thread.


Editing in....sorry, I thought I was responding to Flail and it instead is Z. Z, you as the geologist, do you not see records of waters covering the earth?

[whirlwind]

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What is the “earthly� evidence of this “flood� (something more than conjecture and ancient tales)?

Z, you asked, "What "flood" are YOU talking about and where is it "written"?

I answered in the above post.

[whirlwind]

Are we seriously debating the historical accuracy of biblical verses from Genesis???...come on now...

How can one discern which parts of the bible are historically accurate, which from a God and which from a devil? What is the standard by which such distinctions are made?...or does one simply rely on his particular indoctrinator?

But Flail, the topic is.....

Question for debate:

Does Fundamentalism impede about nature and the real world we inhabit if the information conflicts with religious "teachings"?

I'm demonstrating that many of the conflicts people believe are there...aren't there at all. It has nothing to do with "indoctrination" but with what is written.

[Zzyzx]

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I'm demonstrating that many of the conflicts people believe are there...aren't there at all. It has nothing to do with "indoctrination" but with what is written.

"What is written" by ancient storytellers and taken as truth by some presently, often DOES conflict with what we learn about the Earth and nature (the real world).

Fervent belief in ancient tales CAN impede learning -- and does in many instances.

Some maintain that the whole Earth was flooded, that donkeys and snakes converse with humans, that dead bodies come back to life after days in the grave, that people can live inside a fish, that water turns into wine.

NONE of those tales is consistent with what mankind has learned about nature. Steadfast belief that they are true DOES conflict with learning about the real world.

For instance, we know how to make wine -- and it is NOT by chanting over or blessing water. One can chant and bless all they wish -- and they will produce nothing but water. If they wish to actually make wine, they must start with something other than water.

Do you recognize this as a conflict between belief "what is written" (the tale) vs. learning to actually make wine?

[whirlwind]

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I'm demonstrating that many of the conflicts people believe are there...aren't there at all. It has nothing to do with "indoctrination" but with what is written.

"What is written" by ancient storytellers and taken as truth by some presently, often DOES conflict with what we learn about the Earth and nature (the real world).

Fervent belief in ancient tales CAN impede learning -- and does in many instances.

That is true. Fervent believe in God and reading the letter of the word can impede learning. Just as, fervent DISBELIEF in God can impede one seeing the spirit of the word.

God is the writer...not ancient storytellers. The conflict is there if you don't read with understanding. I have demonstrated His Words in relation to the beginning....do you not see them?

Some maintain that the whole Earth was flooded, that donkeys and snakes converse with humans, that dead bodies come back to life after days in the grave, that people can live inside a fish, that water turns into wine.

The whole earth was flooded. Snakes don't talk and I have explained that to you several times....is it that you prefer to laugh at silly little Christians that believe in talking snakes rather than admitting that the serpent was Satan? He did come back to life and this is our example showing what will be and it will happen whether or not you believe it. Our flesh is gone but our soul and spirit do not perish until and if we are appointed to do so. Consider what "the fish" was. If you prefer to think it was a real fish then....okay. I don't. Water turns to wine every year....He just sped up the process.

NONE of those tales is consistent with what mankind has learned about nature. Steadfast belief that they are true DOES conflict with learning about the real world.

For instance, we know how to make wine -- and it is NOT by chanting over or blessing water. One can chant and bless all they wish -- and they will produce nothing but water. If they wish to actually make wine, they must start with something other than water.

And did Christ chant?

Do you recognize this as a conflict between belief "what is written" (the tale) vs. learning to actually make wine?

I recognize that some really strive to see even though they don't believe and that others may actually see and choose to not believe.