Why do christians believe in god?

[kilese]

I want to know how, in this modern world, people still worship a god. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't even try to believe it. I see no logic in it at all, to believe in a magical being that lives in the clouds. You can't possibly truly believe in it all. If you do, then humans are more clueless than i thought. Why worship someone who lets children starve everyday? If he has the power to stop it, and doesn't, then he is malevolent. But if he doesn't have the power, he is not a god. And if god created freewill and is omnipotent, then he would already know about all the horrible things in the world that would happen, and could have stopped it. And if he's omnipotent, whats the point of praying? Your prayers would have already been heard. And no one's prayers have been answered, so he is not worth worshiping, and therefore, is not a god. I'm not try to attack anyone, i just can't understand how anyone can believe all this.

[WinePusher]

I want to know how, in this modern world, people still worship a god.

That is kind of weird. There must be some veracity to the God claim if so many people in the modern world are stil believers.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't even try to believe it. I see no logic in it at all, to believe in a magical being that lives in the clouds.

What religion claims that a magical creature lives in the clouds? Christianity claims a transcendent being exists outside of the natural world, not a magical being that lives in the clouds.

You can't possibly truly believe in it all.

Takes much more faith to be an atheist and believe that no higher order or purpose exists......

If you do, then humans are more clueless than i thought.

Notice, that the great philsophers and scientists of the ages were christians.

Soren Kieerkegard, Immanuel Kant, Wilhelm Hegel, Plato, Rutherford, J.J Thompson, Ernest Rutherford, Copernicus, Galileo. Now, there religious beleifs may or may not have directly influenced their great works, but if it did not influence them, it surly did not hinder them.

Why worship someone who lets children starve everyday? If he has the power to stop it, and doesn't, then he is malevolent.

What would you like to see happen, God rain down some manna? I see God's hand at work in all those missionaries who feed and care for children in thrid world countries.

But if he doesn't have the power, he is not a god. And if god created freewill and is omnipotent, then he would already know about all the horrible things in the world that would happen, and could have stopped it.

According to you, the only other alternative would have been to make man sub-serviant to God with no free will of his own. And also, notice that the good that has been brought about by free will, not just evil.

[JohnnyJersey]

Why would it not be arrogant to propose there's something beyond what can be sensed?

Because it is a humble attitude to acknowledge that which is beyond our capability of understanding. It is an arrogant attitude that believes we can possibly know all, even if we don't know it all yet.

How can one know what can't be sensed?

Spiritually, for one.

What do you propose is beyond what can be sensed and observed?

The Supernatural.

Your failure to understand why folks don't believe claims of dead folks rising, or animals talking, or folks walking on water is your own issue.

Show me evidence these things occur and I'll go to believing with you.

Your failure to understand or even be able to consider the fact that there is more beyond your own senses is your own issue.

Show me evidence that you will accept whatever evidence I will provide and I will provide it; otherwise, I won't waste my time with you.

Then perhaps you're not so "ignorant or uneducated" that you can't proffer verifiable evidence for your favored god?

Let's see who's "ignorant or uneducated".

"favored god" - ha. How pathetically typical.

"Verifiable"? Verifiable by what? By stories from others? By tales from others? By hearsay?

[Scotracer]

I want to know how, in this modern world, people still worship a god. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't even try to believe it. I see no logic in it at all, to believe in a magical being that lives in the clouds. You can't possibly truly believe in it all. If you do, then humans are more clueless than i thought. Why worship someone who lets children starve everyday? If he has the power to stop it, and doesn't, then he is malevolent. But if he doesn't have the power, he is not a god. And if god created freewill and is omnipotent, then he would already know about all the horrible things in the world that would happen, and could have stopped it. And if he's omnipotent, whats the point of praying? Your prayers would have already been heard. And no one's prayers have been answered, so he is not worth worshiping, and therefore, is not a god. I'm not try to attack anyone, i just can't understand how anyone can believe all this.

Christians don't believe hardly any of the above. First of all they believe in God not god. Secondly, he doesn't exactly "live in the clouds." (I don't know where that came from) And nobody ever said he was magical. (At least not the Bible) And who is letting children starve? Man or God? Sin and evil came into the world as a result of man's sins. The Bible says, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." Now until you all try this, you can't say God doesn't answer prayer.

David

Can your god use supernatural forces to affect the natural world?

If the answer to the above is yes, the god you believe in is magical, by definition.

I don't understand how anyone can be so arrogant and ignorant as to think that the world ends with what they can sense and that there not only is not but can't be a crucial reason behind the existence of everything. Well, I guess I kind of understand it; there are many people who lack the ability to think philosophically and question beyond what they're told are certain limits in the world, i.e. that which can be sensed and observed.

Furthermore, I can't understand how people who live their lives on faith in what others claim to have observed and the stories and tales told by those people would be able to turn around and criticize others for doing the same without realizing what bleedingly ignorant hypocrites they are.

Then again, there are just a lot of ignorant, uneducated people out there who never study anything yet bash what they don't know - and the irreligious fall into that category.

Didn't take long for you to run in with the broad insults, did it?

Are you really, honestly comparing the bible with the scientific method? For one thet bible has no accountability as we don't know the authors (and they ain't alive) and offer no way to verify what they claim is true whereas science is wholly accountable and scrutinised critically to the nth degree. Also, science has been confirmed over and over and over again to make accurate predictions and explanations of nature...if it didn't we wouldn't even be having this debate.

No one said there was nothing beyond what we know; you'd be very hard pressed to find an atheist who would make such a ridiculous claim but when you make a claim or believe something so much that it affects how you live and can't back it up in any verifiable sense....well, then you're not being rational.

[Adamoriens]

Christians don't believe hardly any of the above. First of all they believe in God not god. Secondly, he doesn't exactly "live in the clouds." (I don't know where that came from)

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From the New International Version:

Acts 1:9-11: "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 'Men of Galilee,' they said, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.'"

Luke 24:50-53: "When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God."

Mark 16:19-20: "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

In addition, numerous passages in Exodus refer to God descending down to Earth in physical form (decidedly not in the form of Jesus, as many would have it), inhabiting clouds and storms about mount Sinai etc. In Genesis, God notices the builders of of the Tower of Babel:

Genesis 11: 5-7: "But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The LORD said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'"

We have no statement that he "exactly lives in the clouds." However, the text seems to suggest that he lives somewhere in the sky or in space. No doubt I'm misinterpreting all this incorrectly; it's all metaphorical! Whatever the case, you now know where the idea came from: the Bible.

[JohnnyJersey]

I don't understand how anyone can be so arrogant and ignorant as to think that the world ends with what they can sense and that there not only is not but can't be a crucial reason behind the existence of everything. Well, I guess I kind of understand it; there are many people who lack the ability to think philosophically and question beyond what they're told are certain limits in the world, i.e. that which can be sensed and observed.

Furthermore, I can't understand how people who live their lives on faith in what others claim to have observed and the stories and tales told by those people would be able to turn around and criticize others for doing the same without realizing what bleedingly ignorant hypocrites they are.

Then again, there are just a lot of ignorant, uneducated people out there who never study anything yet bash what they don't know - and the irreligious fall into that category.

...and I agree....which is why life is so interesting and fulfilling in its questions and searches and challenges...there is so much to learn and understand...particular god indoctrinations tend to take sutch things as that out of life.

And certain anti-God indoctrinations tend to take such things as that out of life even more so...which is why it's odd to me that you'd claim to agree with me when based on what I've seen from you you clearly do not agree with me, despite your claim here.

[JohnnyJersey]

Didn't take long for you to run in with the broad insults, did it?

The only broad insults I see are in the OP and from the other irreligious in this thread in their offensive mischaracterization of religious people. Funny how none of that bothers you, if you even see it at all.

Are you really, honestly comparing the bible with the scientific method?

No. Where do you get that? The Bible is a spiritual book and the scientific method is limited to the physical, sensory world. I am, however, comparing philosophies based on essentially two different worldviews.

For one thet bible has no accountability as we don't know the authors (and they ain't alive) and offer no way to verify what they claim is true whereas science is wholly accountable and scrutinised critically to the nth degree.

I can say the same thing you say about the Bible about any books written by people, including historians, before our time. What's your point?

As for science, much of it is based on faith, faith that the observations and data gathered by other scientists beforehand is reliable and not skewed by error or bias. Furthermore, science is never ultimately conclusive; it is always left open to be changed.

Also, science has been confirmed over and over and over again to make accurate predictions and explanations of nature...if it didn't we wouldn't even be having this debate.

And we still get conflicting reports from "science" about what foods are good or bad, or the origins of the universe, or how and why people behave the way they do...

No one said there was nothing beyond what we know; you'd be very hard pressed to find an atheist who would make such a ridiculous claim but when you make a claim or believe something so much that it affects how you live and can't back it up in any verifiable sense....well, then you're not being rational.

I'm well aware atheists don't claim we know everything. What they claim is that we don't know everything...yet. If there's something unexplained, they admit it's unexplained, but they add that word - "yet". We don't know "yet". This means answers are all explainable and knowable even if we haven't learned or figured them out yet.

If you want to be so arrogant as to presume that scentific method and the myriad versions of it and the terms of science hold the key to finding the answer to everything while ignoring philosophy (and hence, religion), then you are being completely irrational.

[McCulloch]

What religion claims that a magical creature lives in the clouds? Christianity claims a transcendent being exists outside of the natural world, not a magical being that lives in the clouds.

You could have fooled me.

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Takes much more faith to be an atheist and believe that no higher order or purpose exists......

Why do you say that?

Notice, that the great philosophers and scientists of the ages were Christians.

You mean Albert Einstein, Francis Crick, Richard Dawkins, Paul Dirac, Richard Feynman, Sigmund Freud, Erich Fromm, Stephen Jay Gould, G. H. Hardy, Peter Higgs, Julian Huxley, Frédéric Joliot-Curie, Alfred Kinsey, Richard Leakey, Linus Pauling, Steven Pinker, Oliver Sacks, Carl Sagan, Alan Turing, James D. Watson, Steven Weinberg, Simone de Beauvoir, Albert Camus, Noam Chomsky, Auguste Comte, Daniel Dennett, Denis Diderot, Michel Foucault, David Hume, Karl Marx, John Stuart Mill, Friedrich Nietzsche, Karl Popper, Bertrand Russell, Jean-Paul Sartre, Felix Bloch, Benoît Mandelbrot, Leo Sachs, Paul Erdős, Hermann Minkowski, Wolfgang Pauli, Leo Kanner, Al-Khwarizmi, Avicenna, Averroes ...

I guess you've never heard of them.

To say nothing of 802 Jewish individuals who have been awarded Nobel prizes.

What would you like to see happen, God rain down some manna? I see God's hand at work in all those missionaries who feed and care for children in third world countries.

Do you see God's hand in cancer and the HIV virus? Or do you blame the victim?

[Flail]

I don't understand how anyone can be so arrogant and ignorant as to think that the world ends with what they can sense and that there not only is not but can't be a crucial reason behind the existence of everything. Well, I guess I kind of understand it; there are many people who lack the ability to think philosophically and question beyond what they're told are certain limits in the world, i.e. that which can be sensed and observed.

Furthermore, I can't understand how people who live their lives on faith in what others claim to have observed and the stories and tales told by those people would be able to turn around and criticize others for doing the same without realizing what bleedingly ignorant hypocrites they are.

Then again, there are just a lot of ignorant, uneducated people out there who never study anything yet bash what they don't know - and the irreligious fall into that category.

...and I agree....which is why life is so interesting and fulfilling in its questions and searches and challenges...there is so much to learn and understand...particular god indoctrinations tend to take sutch things as that out of life.

And certain anti-God indoctrinations tend to take such things as that out of life even more so...which is why it's odd to me that you'd claim to agree with me when based on what I've seen from you you clearly do not agree with me, despite your claim here.

I agreed with the notion you expressed that we should not presume 'that the world ends with what we can sense...or(presume) that their cannot be a reason behind the existence of things.' In my view we should not be presumptiv or pretend to know that which contains no evidence or which we cannot yet perceive or understand. I contend that an atheism which pretends to know that there is no 'god' is in the same camp with theism which pretends to know a particular 'god'.

[Goat]

Why would it not be arrogant to propose there's something beyond what can be sensed?

Because it is a humble attitude to acknowledge that which is beyond our capability of understanding. It is an arrogant attitude that believes we can possibly know all, even if we don't know it all yet.

How can one know what can't be sensed?

Spiritually, for one.

And what evidence can you present that shows that 'spiritually' is something more than a person's imagination and/or wishful thinking? Or, is it one of those dang 'unsupported claims'?

What do you propose is beyond what can be sensed and observed?

The Supernatural.

And what evidence can you present that shows that the supernatural is something more than a person's imagination and/or wishful thinking? Or, is it one of those dang 'unsupported claims'?

Your failure to understand why folks don't believe claims of dead folks rising, or animals talking, or folks walking on water is your own issue.

Show me evidence these things occur and I'll go to believing with you.

Your failure to understand or even be able to consider the fact that there is more beyond your own senses is your own issue.

Show me evidence that you will accept whatever evidence I will provide and I will provide it; otherwise, I won't waste my time with you.
[/quote]

It is you that is making the claims.. what can you show others that can be verified, and can examined objectively. It sounds like your challenge is a way to try to avoid scrutiny of your claims.

Then perhaps you're not so "ignorant or uneducated" that you can't proffer verifiable evidence for your favored god?

Let's see who's "ignorant or uneducated".

"favored god" - ha. How pathetically typical.

"Verifiable"? Verifiable by what? By stories from others? By tales from others? By hearsay?

let's see, stories from others, tales from others, and hearsay all are the exact same thing, and frankly can not be examined for veracity. Often told tales and rumors are just words in the wind.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 12:

Because it is a humble attitude to acknowledge that which is beyond our capability of understanding.

A humble attitude says nothing about the veracity of claims regarding what can't be sensed.

It is an arrogant attitude that believes we can possibly know all, even if we don't know it all yet.

Just as I consider it "arrogant" to claim some god gives two hoots about the comings and goings of humans - unless one is able to show such to be correct.

How can one know what can't be sensed?

Spiritually, for one.

Are you claiming folks can know the spiritual without sensing it?

"'Spiritual' and 'senseless' look an awful lot alike Daddy." - With apologies to Little Enos Ber..., Bur...

What do you propose is beyond what can be sensed and observed?

The Supernatural.

Have you, without sensing or observing been able to ascertain there is something beyond the natural?

Your failure to understand why folks don't believe claims of dead folks rising, or animals talking, or folks walking on water is your own issue.

Show me evidence these things occur and I'll go to believing with you.

Your failure to understand or even be able to consider the fact that there is more beyond your own senses is your own issue...

Notice, I don't make claims in this regard, but challenge folks such as yourself who claim there is something "beyond the natural" to show you speak truth.

Can you?

Show me evidence that you will accept whatever evidence I will provide and I will provide it; otherwise, I won't waste my time with you.

How can I make a determination regarding the veracity of evidence you've yet to present?

Whether you wish to "waste time" on me or not, you claim evidence exists, but refuse to present it unless I agree it is "evidence" beforehand.

That's as goofy a notion as I've ever known.

Then perhaps you're not so "ignorant or uneducated" that you can't proffer verifiable evidence for your favored god?

Let's see who's "ignorant or uneducated".

"favored god" - ha. How pathetically typical...

Would you say it is more "pathetically typical" than "I won't present my evidence unless you agree to accept it beforehand"?

"Verifiable"? Verifiable by what? By stories from others? By tales from others? By hearsay?

Please explain how we can verify evidence you refuse to present.