How is God perfect?

[Ravenstorm]

Before everything existed(before genesis 1:1)), what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create?

If God is the God of the bible, He is PERFECT,he knows everything,created everything,can destroy everything, can make the impossible possible, feel human emotions, and sees the past,present, and future at the same time.

Typically christian say he was board/lonely. ~If you are perfect, you are complete. You desire, nothing. A perfect God just exists because imperfectness seeks perfectness/completeness. because God is way different from us(sorry i don't see people doing what he claims to do). for us to seek perfectness/completeness we DO stuff to be the person we want to be,instead of the person we are, while god has no need for doing anything.

Also emotions happen from new information received. I will feel angry if i lose my homework. i will feel sad if today my dog died. new information i have learned, my homework not being done, and my dog dying(this is all hypothetical) will cause un perfectness to me and cause me those emotions. So if God knows everything, how can he feels emotions? that is like saying my pen has invisible blue ink....it can have invisible ink,OR it can have blue ink. not both. (god can have emotion, OR know everything, not both)

It says in the bible humans are created in God's image. so humans are imperfect, so that means,in God's image He is imperfect. something perfect can not create anything imperfect. Does that mean God is imperfect?

now a christian will say something about he gave us free will to choose to follow him or not so we won't be like robots. We must have freewill to be happy. If God made it only robots like people could feel happiness, not free willed people that would be the better option because it wouldn't of caused evil in His perfect world from his perfect humans(if they are from his perfect image) that perfectly used His perfect gift freewill to choose evil. Perfect can not make imperfect.
If he did want us to have free will, he could of gave us freewill without the ability to learn,use, or know evil. only different options that are good. (like how 3+1=4. and 2+2=4...different options to get the same effect) Farther more God can not make imperfect decisions he knows everything. If we are the mirror image of God we should make perfect decisions. Why do we make imperfect decisions?

Why would a God that already knows if he creates humans many of them would go to 'eternal punishment' and it would bring only pain and sin in his world. Any God with compassion and love for his creations wouldn't of created such a being that the Perfect Words of God says it would of been better for them to never been born. how can you be all loving and create already humans that are doomed to pain and evil?

What kind of perfect God would create such a punishment FOREVER if the sins they only did for a certain amount of time. that is unreasonable decision and a perfect god always makes perfect decisions.

another thing is, why is it that belief is more important than action? no matter how much good you do,even if you were 100% innocent(like a baby dying from SIDs, or a still born.....never had the chance to sin) or someone who never learned about the christian religion in remote parts of the world will go to eternal punishment just for not believing the EXACT words of Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would a perfect God perfectly decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect way such as a book(bible), written in many imperfect language created by his mirror image imperfect man. He expects us to understand the bible when it is so questionable,a perfect god would of known better to show his powers to us personally instead of using an imperfect book.

also may you please explain this to me.
Can God create a rock so heavy that He himself can't lift it? if you say yes, that means he is limited in strength....if you say know he is limited in creation abilities.

How can we have free will if God knows EVERYTHING, he knows the future of everyone,what they will pick ,and every mistake they will do.

but God can make the impossible possible. that means he can make the possible impossible for him anyways that's a possibility in his unlimited powers.

can he make this rock*points to a rock* the most coldest and hottest thing on earth 100% without destroying anything?

therefor it is impossible to do everything and anything.

Now God is all loving,compassionate,perfect god. but he has a twisted sense of justice. slathering 2 year old babies, killing people with his plagues, and killing more people,and letting people be in a forever fire just for the sake of justice.

now if you add up all the dates in the bible (from Adam until now) you get roughly 6 thousand years. so that means anything before 6thousand years ago is before the creation of the earth. the bible contradicts time.

Also the bible is imperfect, i mean a God to show his perfect will by an imperfect book is impossible. which makes the book a mistake, which makes almost everything on it wrong.

If god has the power to change the future(no more wars,hate,bad stuff,etc) and is unwilling to, does that make him evil?

If god is willing to change the future but is powerless to, why are we worshiping him?

if he not willing or capable would that make him mortal?

so please answer any the questions you can,it would be very nice for answers to these question of why i doubt this religion. if i can get valid answers for these, i will truly honestly become a Christian again(i was,then i wasn't,then i was, and now i am not)

[Benoni]

Sorry you are looking for God in all the wrong places.

From Post 9:

God is a creator, that is who He is.

So it's claimed.

How to verify?

Who knows how many worlds He has created?

Lacking evidence, I start the bidding at zero.

When God creates it is not in the realm of eternal but in the realm of ages.

How might we confirm this as truthful?

How can something be created eternally when it had a beginning. To be truly eternal a eing has no beginning or end.

I'm just trying to get folks to show me the "middle".

[JoeyKnothead]

Sorry you are looking for God in all the wrong places.

I'm not looking for God. I'm looking for folks that can speak truth regarding the properties of this God.

Can you show you speak truth?

>snipping to highlight challenges<

From Post 9:

God is a creator, that is who He is.

So it's claimed.

How to verify?

When God creates it is not in the realm of eternal but in the realm of ages.

How might we confirm this as truthful?

How can something be created eternally when it had a beginning. To be truly eternal a eing has no beginning or end.

I'm just trying to get folks to show me the "middle".

2nd challenge.

[Ravenstorm]

for question 1.) i accept that answer, thank you:)...that is probably the smartest answer someone gave me sense a long time:) I'll keep that in mind. (and yes, thinking about it to much makes my brain hurt)

okay creativity leads to creation....that makes sense.

and he can NOT do anything that is logically(something he created,logic) impossible. okay so that means there is some limit within logic?

It doesn't matter how illogical it is, but the idea of him being capable to do it.
He created everything, therefore he created logic. (when the earth was made, some rules-like gravity,limitations for humans,etc...- were formed with them)
He can surpass his own creation just like how he,in as Jesus, can preform all those miracles, rise from the dead, and walk on water. Also,just like time, God isn't in our matter/space/time so rules such as logic shouldn't effect him.

I appreciate your kind words. Thank you.


I do not think that logic is something that can be created, at least not in the way a mountain was created. Logic does not exist in the physical sense; it is concept – a way of organizing thoughts. It is not a “thing� like matter/space/time.

Certain rules of the universe – like gravity or the limitations of humans – are not logical necessities. God did create a world with gravity, but gravity is a property of the universe and not a concept like logic. The world could exist without gravity (though it would be different than it is now). Our reality could not exist as a logical impossibility.

We cannot say that God “created� logic any more than we can say that God created love or that God created faith. God is loving, God is faithful, and God is logical.

If God bound by faithfulness? Well, it is part of His nature so He could not be unfaithful. That is different from being subjugated to faithfulness. In a similar way God could not do the logically impossible, but that does not limit His greatness.

(I should add that some people who are smarter than me disagree on this point. Some theologians have said that God can do the logically impossible. However, since our minds our bound by the rules of logic we will be unable to understand such acts as long as we are in this world. I don’t agree with this, but all points of view should be considered.)

oh,that makes sense,thanks:D

doesn't an eternal punishment for finite(spelling?..anything that has a beginning and end ) sins seem unfair for an all-loving all compassionate all-forgiving God?
even more the idea that we are born into sins(or something along those lines) and Jesus is the ONLY way to God and heaven.....so why would babies that die from SIDs,before they had a chance at living,sinning,and knowing God go straight to eternal punishment if they didn't have the chance at knowing God or sinning(but apparently being born is a sin) ?

[Flail]

and Jesus is the ONLY way to God and heaven.....

This is nothing more than dogma propounded to keep customers from the competition.

[bjs]

Ravenstorm,
These are good questions, and issues I have wrestled with for a long time. I fear my answers will require speculation (or at least interpretation of the Bible) on my part. I am happy to speculate to a degree, but I just wanted to own up to that up front. Before I get into speculation, I wanted to see if there are some things we can agree on. (I promise I will address your questions, I just want to get this stuff out of the way first).

doesn't an eternal punishment for finite(spelling?..anything that has a beginning and end ) sins seem unfair for an all-loving all compassionate all-forgiving God?

The underlying question here seems to be, “What is hell?�

Before getting into that, do you agree that some kind of punishment is required in the next life? If a person abuses generosity, preys upon the helpless, and hurts people without remorse or repentance, do you think that a just God should punish that person for those actions?

even more the idea that we are born into sins(or something along those lines) and Jesus is the ONLY way to God and heaven.....so why would babies that die from SIDs,before they had a chance at living,sinning,and knowing God go straight to eternal punishment if they didn't have the chance at knowing God or sinning(but apparently being born is a sin) ?

Before I answer I want to establish that this does not describe you or me. We both know right from wrong. We both have had a moment (probably countless moments) when we were capable of choosing between right and wrong and we chose to do what was wrong. We have lied. We have hurt people we care about. We have refused to show compassion. We have turned a blind eye to those who are helpless and in need. We have had ample opportunity for remorse and repentance. If Christianity is true then we know and understand the means of forgiveness. If/When we stand before the Lord we will be without excuse.

Do you agree or disagree?

[Ooberman]

Ravenstorm,The underlying question here seems to be, “What is hell?�

Before getting into that, do you agree that some kind of punishment is required in the next life?

No, there is no "next life"

If a person abuses generosity, preys upon the helpless, and hurts people without remorse or repentance, do you think that a just God should punish that person for those actions?

If a god existed, then yes, that god should punish people for being bad, but like a parent does: when the event happens. How many parents do you know will ground their children for having a party with alcohol in high school - when that kid admits to it when they are 55 years old?

But, the punishment of Hitler should have been while Hitler was alive - and before he killed 12 million people - maybe after he killed 100,000 people god should have punished him? What do you think?

And, you have no evidence that any afterlife exists.

Before I answer I want to establish that this does not describe you or me. We both know right from wrong. We both have had a moment (probably countless moments) when we were capable of choosing between right and wrong and we chose to do what was wrong. We have lied. We have hurt people we care about. We have refused to show compassion. We have turned a blind eye to those who are helpless and in need. We have had ample opportunity for remorse and repentance. If Christianity is true then we know and understand the means of forgiveness. If/When we stand before the Lord we will be without excuse.

Do you agree or disagree?

To some degree, but I will remind you that in many cases right and wrong are not clearly established, and, do you include a child of 2 testing his parents? he knows it is wrong to hit his baby sister, but he does it anyhow - does that child deserve Hell?

Do we? Why?

And, why Hell at all? Why not a spanking?

Don't most parents accept their child back? I know if I beat my child enough he will ultimately love me, why does God need to keep the beating going? Does he enjoy it?

[JoeyKnothead]

How is god perfect?

Undefeated at hide and go seek.

[otseng]

Sorry you are looking for God in all the wrong places.

Moderator comment:

This does not add any value to the debate. Instead, post evidence and arguments for God, instead of just simply stating that someone is looking at the wrong places.

[Ravenstorm]

@bjs

1.) i believe God should give punishments that are equal to the reason why they are punished......life is finite,it ends. i don't see why for a finite life and finite sins they get forever punishment. i i do beleive there should be punishments,jsut not ones that go on forever.......

2.) we would be without an excuse. because we both know of the christian religion.
but people who NEVER in their lives heard of God or your religion, never had a chance to learn it would have an excuse. only people who have heard of the religion, have no excuse.

[bjs]

Because of the complexity of these issues I will have to take them one at a time.

@bjs

2.) we would be without an excuse. because we both know of the christian religion.
but people who NEVER in their lives heard of God or your religion, never had a chance to learn it would have an excuse. only people who have heard of the religion, have no excuse.

It seems that the question could be phrased, “What happens to those who die too young to understand God or who never hear about Christ.�

Those who die in infancy:

The Bible talks of a time in life when a person is too young to know right from wrong. A person must reach a certain level of maturity – in modern terms what we would call an age of accountability – before know right from wrong. The scriptures mention 18-years-old and 13-years-old as possible ages of accountability, but I would say that the general sense is that God treats us as individuals and each individual reaches their own age of accountability at their own pace.

If a person is too young to know right from wrong – either by her own conscious or by what is revealed by God – then that person cannot know any law. If there is no law then there is no way to break the law. If there is no law then sin is impossible. A child who dies too young to know right from wrong is not guilty of any sin because she has never been subject to any law.

(I think Catholicism has a somewhat different response, but someone with more knowledge of the Roman church will have to take up that cause.)

Those who live a full life but never hear of Christ:

If a person does not know the law of the Lord then his own conscious becomes a law for him. God has given each of us the basic ability to understand right from wrong. If a person makes a promise and keeps that promise because it is good to keep your promises, then he has served the Lord. If a person makes a promise and breaks it then he has broken the law that God wrote on his heart. If a person never hears of Christ then he will be judged by his own conscious as to what is right and wrong.

The most common response I hear to this is, “Then why do you want to spread the news of Jesus.� I spread the good news because the human conscious is corruptible (the longer I live the more I convinced I am of this truth).

Some people will not even try to live by their own conscious. Of those that do try, some will live in godliness (though not perfection) and some will be unable to do so. In Christ there is assurance of salvation. Without knowledge of Christ a person might genuinely try to follow his conscious and fail. If a person tries to follow Christ then there is no fear of failure. If I will follow Jesus then all of my sins are forgiven. So I consider it an imperative to spread the good news that Jesus is alive because it provides not just a possibility of salvation but an assurance of salvation for anyone who desires to be saved.