How do you separate religion and the supernatural?

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Do you believe in the supernatural?

Of course I do!
5
31%
Are you kidding?
11
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Total votes: 16

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Lotan
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How do you separate religion and the supernatural?

Post #1

Post by Lotan »

This question was originally brought up by RevJP on the "Why Attack Christianity?" thread. Is there a religion that doesn't include supernatural elements? Could there be, or would it be considered a 'philosophy' or something else?

And, while we're at it...

Some of you may be familiar with the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge offered by magician and professional skeptic James Randi. In my opinion though, real evidence for the supernatural shouldn't come cheap, so I am prepared to offer...{doing my best Dr. Evil impression}... One BILLION Dollars (!!!!!) for incontrovertible, hard evidence for the existence of the supernatural. Don't worry, I'm good for it! :^o
Now for a billion bucks you'll have to come up with something pretty choice. Never mind your uncle's NDE or a cheesy shaped like Benny Hinn. I want something good, like a staff that turns into a snake, or maybe a live demon. Also please avoid any quantum physics weirdness or arguments about strange events or coincidences that must be supernatural unless they are presented by a talking donkey. Best of luck to all!
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #11

Post by otseng »

Nyril wrote:This isn't just my crazy theory.
http://www.space.com/news/spacestation/ ... 91015.html
Here is the key phrase:
but nobody has ever detected signs of such huge amounts of antimatter.
Look like more faith to me if there is no evidence that it exists and yet point to the fact that it might exist.
No. We can make antimatter if we're so inclined. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 030929.htm
The link is not working. I have however found another link that work.

Anyways, how is it relevent to the argument that we can make a matter/anti-matter pair? Even to make it, humans had to have been involved. And they had to construct a device to create the matter/anti-matter pair. It did not just spontaneously come out of nowhere. An elaborate system had to be first constructed to generate anti-matter. This is further evidence of a supernatural world since some system outside of ours must exist to have created the matter in our universe.
Why does the universe apparently contain only matter, and no antimatter?
Interesting theory. But there is no evidence to back this up.
Lotan wrote: Unfortunately, the Big Bang (that's probably not what you're referring to is it?) would qualify as one of those events that some think must be a result of supernatural forces.
Yes, I'm referring to the Big Bang.
The fact is that we don't know if the FLoT was violated.
If we don't know that, then how can we know anything? That is, are you saying the laws of physics were somehow different during the Big Bang? This seems to me like a reverse logic of what Nyril used above. Instead of saying laws might be different in the future, it was different in the past. Again, we can only base our understanding on the things we currently know. Until our understanding of physics changes, we cannot go by possible past or future possibilities.
Maybe everything has always been here and continually expands and contracts.
Impossible. This would violate the second law of thermo.
The best hypothesis that I've heard comes from string theory.
And even the Superstring theory points to the supernatural. It posits 10, 11, or 26 dimensions for the theory to hold. Since we have only 3.5 dimensions in our universe. All the other dimensions would not be part of our universe.
It could very well involve natural phenomena that we are not aware of yet.
It certainly could. But this viewpoint is based on pure speculation instead of any substantive logic. So, until anyone can actually use facts to disprove my argument instead of appealing to faith, my argument for the existence of the supernatural stands unrefuted.
Thank you for playing though, and please accept this consolation prize...
Uh, the billion dollar baby?

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Post #12

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:It certainly could. But this viewpoint is based on pure speculation instead of any substantive logic. So, until anyone can actually use facts to disprove my argument instead of appealing to faith, my argument for the existence of the supernatural stands unrefuted.
Hi otseng.
Unrefuted it is, but not proven either. If our universe is a part of some multidimensional whole does that make the extra dimensions supernatural or do we just expand our definition of nature? I don't know.
RevJP wrote:What's the definition of 'super natural' for the purposes of this discussion?
Hi Rev.
Since it's your question maybe you could provide a definition. I've been thinking of something outside of nature, magical or miraculous.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #13

Post by RevJP »

I asked because the question at hand needed defining, the answer you seek could be answered in many ways depending upon one's view of the supernatural.

I view supernature as anything outside of the nature we can empirically verify. Of course this throws alot of theoretical science into the realm of supernatural for me....

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Post #14

Post by Lotan »

Hi Rev

OK. Webster's says-

supernatural above nature; occult; miraculous; spiritual.

I was kind of hoping for something similar to what we find in the bible, like an angel, or a pillar of fire. I'm not doing much this weekend, maybe YHWH could whisk me up to heaven in a whirlwind...
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #15

Post by Arch »

Lotan wrote:Hi Rev

OK. Webster's says-

supernatural above nature; occult; miraculous; spiritual.

I was kind of hoping for something similar to what we find in the bible, like an angel, or a pillar of fire. I'm not doing much this weekend, maybe YHWH could whisk me up to heaven in a whirlwind...
Nature-
# The material world and its phenomena.
# The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world

Nature would seem to include only what we know to exist in our material world. THings that have been shown and proven to exist in our material world and understanding of your material world.

So supernatural would seem to be anything outside of that understanding of the material world.

That is why I answered yes I believe in the supernatural. I think there are many things that exist and and could exist outsid eof our current understanding of the material world.
RELIGION IS A PRISON FOR THE SEEKERS OF WISDOM
Simplicity is Profundity
Simply put if you cant prove it, you cant reasonably be mad at me for not believing it

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Post #16

Post by Lotan »

Arch wrote:So supernatural would seem to be anything outside of that understanding of the material world.
Hi Arch
I guess that's why people used to attribute illness to evil spirits, but we know better now, don't we? Hopefully we've learned enough by now to realize that our understanding will improve eventually. We don't have to fall back on superstition every time we run across a situation we can't readily explain. I guess that I'm more interested in those things that people have claimed exist like angels and heaven and whatnot. Things that, if their existence could be demonstrated, would turn modern science on it's head. Like a cherubim, maybe.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #17

Post by RevJP »

Things that, if their existence could be demonstrated, would turn modern science on it's head. Like a cherubim, maybe.
At least you express faith that you may one day see such demonstration. Very enlightened of you Lotan.

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Post #18

Post by otseng »

Lotan wrote:
otseng wrote:So, until anyone can actually use facts to disprove my argument instead of appealing to faith, my argument for the existence of the supernatural stands unrefuted.
Unrefuted it is, but not proven either.
And since as you acknowledge that it is unrefuted, it is then the only rational position to take.
If our universe is a part of some multidimensional whole does that make the extra dimensions supernatural or do we just expand our definition of nature? I don't know.
If it is not detectable/observable (directly or indirectly) through any natural means, then how can it be considered to be part of the natural world? So, yes, I would consider dimensions outside of our 3.5 dimensions to be supernatural (at least until we can do muti-dimensional travel).

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Post #19

Post by Nyril »

And since as you acknowledge that it is unrefuted, it is then the only rational position to take.
This line of thinking leads very quickly to any point the author would like to make.

You can't refute the idea that the IPU created your god, and then ordered your god to keep quiet about it can you?

A more feasible example was the shape of the moon. When galileo looked at it through his telescope, he could very clearly see the surface was not as perfectly unform as the church taught. When confronted by this, the bishops simply asked him, "Can you prove there isn't a crystalline solid filling in all the pores in the moon, thus making it a perfect sphere?", and of course he couldn't.
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]

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Post #20

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:And since as you acknowledge that it is unrefuted, it is then the only rational position to take.
Lots of things are unrefuted otseng. This is only one possibility out of many.
This is the type of logic that Atlantis fans rely on. So long as it's not disproven, they can believe anything they want to about it, even if there is never any evidence.
otseng wrote:If it is not detectable/observable (directly or indirectly) through any natural means, then how can it be considered to be part of the natural world?
Beats me, but that's like saying that microorganisms weren't part of the natural world until the invention of the microscope. If the limit of our understanding is the borderline between the natural and the supernatural, then women must be supernatural because I don't understand them.
RevJP wrote:At least you express faith that you may one day see such demonstration. Very enlightened of you Lotan.
Look! There goes one now...

Image
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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