What triggers atheism?

[harvey1]

I've been thinking about this subject lately because some atheists on this board said at one time they were a Christian. Then I got to wondering, what would bring a Christian to the point to where they no longer believed in God?

In Christianity, the scriptures are very clear on what brings such a person to that point:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen

This verse in Romans 1 clearly sums up what many Christians believe about so-called Christians who turn away from believing in God. The particular verse that is emphasized is that atheism is in response to:

• not glorifying God
• not giving God thanks
• thinking became futile
• their foolish hearts were darkened
• exchanged the truth of God for a lie
• began worshipping the universe rather than God

When you look at that list, the one that sticks out the most is that their "thinking became futile." That is, "thinking" in Greek is better translated as "disputing within themselves," or "questioning what is true." And, "futile" is translated as vain, empty, or foolish. Hence, they began a line of inquiry within themselves that they started doubting their beliefs in a vain and empty kind of reasoning. That is, I translate it as, "their thinking began to consider meaninglessness as meaningful."

I think that is right on the money. In all my experience with people who became atheists (which seems like the majority of atheists, although I'm not sure), what seems to be the case universally is that meaninglessness became somehow a meaningful way to think for them. So, instead of seeing purpose in creation, they began to see it as meaningless. Somehow, this soon developed into a line of thought where they "began to worship the universe rather than God."

So, what evil lurks at that point when you see meaninglessness as meaningful? In my mind, it's as Paul stated: "they claimed to be wise, they became fools." In other words, they were lured away from God by the appeal of wisdom. The same reason why Eve took the forbidden fruit from the serpent. The desire for wisdom, if not tempered with the desire to give God glory, is a subtle means by which a Christian can become at odds with God.

Therefore, here's my question. Is atheism caused by a rejection of meaning in life in order to be vainly knowledgeable, is that what is really happening? I'd like to understand what causes someone from a natural tendency to be open-minded about the causes of the universe, to be very narrow-minded about what can't be the cause.

[The Happy Humanist]

In my case (and I only speak for my case) Overcomer happens to be right. I was raised Roman Catholic, but I don't think I ever bought into it. I questioned it from the very beginning. I remember standing up in Catechism, I couldn't have been more than 7, and asking the lay teacher, "If God made everything, who made God?" After the class stopped laughing, the teacher responded very solemnly, "No one. God always was and always will be." I sat down, somewhat mollified but not quite satisfied. I reasoned that, OK, I'm a kid, when I'm a grown up, I'll understand this." Sad to say, I'm all grown up now, and that understanding hasn't come. So I can't say I was ever a True Christian. My brain is just not wired that way. I can't ignore the little voice in the back of my head that says, "Psst! This is nonsense!" I figure if there is a God and he wired my brain, then it's his fault I'm an atheist.

However, this is not to deny that there are some atheists who genuinely felt communion with Christ, and later came to realize their own capacity for self-delusion. I believe Dan Barker is an example?

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'm an ex-Christian, and I was a true believer at one point. I can't speak for anyone but me (see how we atheists say that a lot?), but what happened is that I began to question my assumptions. I wanted to believe because I had checked things out and found them to be credible, not because I had just swallowed what some preacher or ancient text said. I ran into a lot of cultural and ethnic programming, and when I worked my way to the bottom of all that I found that all my beliefs were based on unverifiable assumptions. I decided to leave all of those assumptions aside and accept only what I could verify for myself.

Atheism isn't anything, it's the lack of something: theism. Like others have rightly said, it's default mode.

Chris

[JamesBrown]

I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said so well.

I was raised in a Christian home, attending church since nine months before I was born. I was a bright, outspoken boy who knew all the answers in Sunday School. When I was seven years old, a Sunday School teacher described Hell in vivid enough terms to convince me that I have to actually ask Jesus into my heart, or else I am not really saved. At that point I would have chewed off all my fingers if it meant I wouldn't go to Hell, I was so scared. I prayed the Sinner's Prayer with the teacher and was baptized (full immersion) a week later.

I attended private Christian school from second grade through college. I was active in our church youth group, winning most Bible drills. At church camp during the summers I won awards for most Bible verses memorized and for being most "Christ-like." I led neighborhood kids to Jesus, went on mission trips, and encouraged federal prisoners by mail to remain faithful to Jesus.

But forget all those works. Those alone might not necessarily have meant that I was a Christian (although you would be hard pressed to convince anyone who knew me then.) To be a Christian is really an easy thing, despite what some people would like it to be. Paul said that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. That's all, nothing else. No need to make every Christian jump through ever-higher hurdles in order to prove that they are Truly Faithful. And let me assure everyone that I confessed that Jesus is LORD countless times, and I passionately believed that God raised him from the dead. Like it or not, I was a Christian.

My sea change came when I started spending time on a message board peopled primarily by atheists. I arrived with the intention of winning as many as possible to Christ. I couldn't wait to see them squirm under the weight of Pascal's Wager and the Argument of Human Nature. As you can imagine, I was hopelessly naive. They had already seen my spiffy arguments plenty of times, thank you, and had long since replied with logical and reasonable responses. I was humiliated into silence. Then they began to ask me questions, like why did the New Testament epistle writers talk so much about Jesus coming, but none of them mentioned him coming again? Why did the Roman executioners refrain from breaking Jesus' legs since he was already dead, but then stab him to make sure he was dead? And why would God tell me to love my enemies and to do good to those who hate me, but tell the Israelites to kill women and children on the grounds that they were sinful?

After a year of soul-searching, reading, private conversations, and MUCH anquished prayer, I finally decided that I couldn't believe in it anymore. When I formally declared that I was an atheist, it was as though the sun had finally emerged from behind the clouds. I felt as if heavy chains fell off my back. I was finally able to get off my knees and stand erect as a member of the human race. I became more happy than I ever was as one who believed that I was worthless and corrupt in God's sight. Instead of seeing all people as either fellow believers or hopeless sinners bound for eternal damnation, now I see all people as equal. I now take full responsibilty for all of my actions, good and bad, instead of hiding behind the idea that an innocent man took my punishment and let me off scott free. What's more, I no longer fear death, but embrace and cherish life to its fullest--all the more so because this is all I will get. For all of that I have atheism to thank.

Please note that I did not deconvert because of some crisis in my life, nor because I was offended by the actions of certain believers, or because of some middle-aged spurt of rebelliousness. I am an atheist because, using my faculties of reason, I do not find enough support to believe in any god. I will not go so far as to say that a god does not exist, but neither am I holding my breath. I know that it will offend some believers to hear me say these things. Some feel that anyone who can stop believing in God must not have ever believed in him to begin with. I can assure them that such thinking is simplistic and just a bit insulting.

[Logetic]

Jesus wouldn't try to convince an atheist of anything. And no one else either.

The swine and pearls insult was rightly placed and He knew for what and why he used that comparison.

There is no logic at looking at the cosmos and thinking somehow you have a calculator that can find the sum of chaos adding up to an empirical figure.

The cosmos is not infinite. Even "science" makes that claim.

Now, inventing your own religion would be rational and denying the validity of other religions would show the ability to reason. But looking towards nothingness to find emotional or intellectual solace is probably closer to mental illness than an enlightened mind.

No one would make up a religion based on the teachings of the common Hebrew Bible. The evidence in the book reaches out only to losers, liars, adulterers, murderers, crooks, false teachers, et., etc., and in fact has very little compliments to anyone that wants to be an adherent to its written words.

If a human were to write a Bible it would probably claim that everything happened by random process and the writers are of the class of the highest order of evolved life. Hmmm. Sound familiar?

A "Christian" (a label of derision made up by nonbelievers and unbelievers) turning into an unbeliever is biblical. Jesus and Paul and much of the New Testament letters talk about that.

It is no different than the Israelites falling away the moment God leaves them for a moment or a century or two or some tought times come along. Also Biblical and historic.

There are many Americans who call themselves that, but are as far from unity with American ideals as Judas was from Jesus.

Truly, the atheists that claim they were once believers have the right to reject God and we believers have the same right to reject their views as having any worth. Why admire those that take the easy way out? It's un-American.

BUT, there is even more to respect of their position as being honest than the liars sitting in the pews in churches worldwide. But of course both are wrong.

[bernee51]

Jesus wouldn't try to convince an atheist of anything. And no one else either.

Why do you say that? Do you believe an atheist is not capable of learning? Do you believe that Jesus had nothing to say that would be of value to an atheist?

The swine and pearls insult was rightly placed and He knew for what and why he used that comparison.

I don't understand.

There is no logic at looking at the cosmos and thinking somehow you have a calculator that can find the sum of chaos adding up to an empirical figure.

Who is claiming to do that? What would be the worth of such an exercise?

The cosmos is not infinite. Even "science" makes that claim.

Even "science" can be wrong.

But looking towards nothingness to find emotional or intellectual solace is probably closer to mental illness than an enlightened mind.

Many 'enlightened' minds would disagree.

Understanding the Nothing, the Emptiness leads one to understand the reason why needs to find emotional and/or intellectual solace arise. Once this is understood the need disappears, along with the cause of suffering.

Some believe that inventing a mythological being along with a whole belief structure to support its existence in order to find succour is a sign of an attachment to a pre-rational level of consciousness and is an attempt to deny the true nature of man.

As has been stated elsewhere - the main function of mythologic religion is translative - translating the slings and arrows of fortune into a framework that is acceptable and provides comfort. It does very little to tranfrom the individual and stimulate a higher level of consciousness. i.e. true commune with Spirit.

BTW we are all 'enlightened' - it is hiding behind the shadow of ego.

No one would make up a religion based on the teachings of the common Hebrew Bible. The evidence in the book reaches out only to losers, liars, adulterers, murderers, crooks, false teachers, et., etc., and in fact has very little compliments to anyone that wants to be an adherent to its written words.

That is obviously not the case is it? The common Hebrew bible has to be looked at within the context of which it was written. i.e. an agrarian society.

If a human were to write a Bible it would probably claim that everything happened by random process and the writers are of the class of the highest order of evolved life. Hmmm. Sound familiar?

No, doesn't sound familiar to me.

There are many Americans who call themselves that, but are as far from unity with American ideals as Judas was from Jesus.

So 'American' ideals are 'christian' ideals?

Why admire those that take the easy way out? It's un-American.

So to be non christian is un American?

But of course both are wrong.

There is no wrong, there are only stages of growth.

[harvey1]

You recognize that we atheists did some thinking in order to change our minds.... To us the reasoning looks very good--so good that we actually changed our minds about a belief that in many cases was very important to us.

Then, after a process, I opened my eyes to the universe and the whole religion thing appeared so absurd to me than I can hardly realize how I once believed such nonsense.

I arrived with the intention of winning as many as possible to Christ. I couldn't wait to see them squirm under the weight of Pascal's Wager and the Argument of Human Nature. As you can imagine, I was hopelessly naive. They had already seen my spiffy arguments plenty of times, thank you, and had long since replied with logical and reasonable responses. I was humiliated into silence. Then they began to ask me questions...

For me, atheism is the exact oppsite - it is a positive search, through meditation and a self-enquiry, into the meaning of life.

I questioned it from the very beginning. I remember standing up in Catechism, I couldn't have been more than 7, and asking the lay teacher, "If God made everything, who made God?" After the class stopped laughing

when I worked my way to the bottom of all that I found that all my beliefs were based on unverifiable assumptions. I decided to leave all of those assumptions aside and accept only what I could verify for myself.

All of the above comments were very much appreciated. However, all of those comments from a Christian perspective have serious flaws in them, if Christianity was really your foundation. Let's take them one by one.

Spetey: "To us the reasoning looks very good--so good that we actually changed our minds about a belief that in many cases was very important to us."

Had you been a real Christian, you would see the vanity in human reasoning separated from God. I just cannot conceive of a real Christian allowing the false reasoning of atheists to sway them from their faith unless they were never real Christians to begin with. (Overcomer, in the sense of being real Christians, I mostly agree with you, but there are exceptions as we will see.)

trencacloscas: "Then, after a process, I opened my eyes to the universe..."

This is very close to Paul's statement that the universe became the subject of worship instead of the Creator. But, what kind of evidence would lead a Christian to that view? I can't think of any such kind of evidence. And, I've seen all the evidence of atheism. It's all so patently absurd most of it, so what could that evidence be except your own inner desire to worship the universe over God? What kind of Christian allows their faith to be swept away so easily and without any real fight?

bernee51: "For me, atheism is the exact oppsite - it is a positive search, through meditation and a self-enquiry, into the meaning of life."

Well, I don't know if you were a Christian. It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you were a New Ager who found Nothingness (i.e., New Age+Nothingness=Bernee's atheism).

The Happy Humanist: "I questioned it from the very beginning"

Ah, a breath of fresh air--honesty.

China Cat Sunflower: "I decided to leave all of those assumptions aside and accept only what I could verify for myself."

So, you jumped to a belief that made even larger, unfounded assumptions? Why?? Ah, this is a horrible Christian approach to life. Your faith was easily washed away.

JamesBrown: "I arrived with the intention of winning as many as possible to Christ. I couldn't wait to see them squirm under the weight of Pascal's Wager and the Argument of Human Nature. As you can imagine, I was hopelessly naive. They had already seen my spiffy arguments plenty of times, thank you, and had long since replied with logical and reasonable responses. I was humiliated into silence. Then they began to ask me questions.."

James, I think you were a real Christian, and that bothers me. Why? Why? Why? Looking at your account, it appears that intellectual vanity brought you down. That is, you came in with the intention of winning souls, and you didn't realize that it is Christ that wins souls, not you. Add to that your fundamentalism, and you were obviously vunerable. I wish you had sought the help of knowledgeable Christians rather than taking on those atheists by yourself. You should have realized that atheism is a hungry belief system that practices 24/7 to defeat the arguments of Christians, and they rub their hands in wait of someone such as yourself. I've argued atheists for many years, and they often parade themselves under the banner of parsimony, openmindedness, or default position, or what have you. All of it is baloney, of course. It's too late now, you've already converted away from Christ. But, it's sad. I hope Christians read your story, and realize how important it is to learn about their faith before engaging in debates with those who have skilled themselves in these discussions.

[JamesBrown]

James, I think you were a real Christian, and that bothers me. Why? Why? Why? Looking at your account, it appears that intellectual vanity brought you down. That is, you came in with the intention of winning souls, and you didn't realize that it is Christ that wins souls, not you.

Well, this may be verbal semantics. The fact is, I believed myself to arrive at the atheist forum with my best behavior. I wasn't there to pronounce fiery judgement on the godless heathen. My intention was to calmly speak on behalf of Christ and Christianity, hoping that my witness and good example would spur them to seek me out and inquire about my beliefs. No, I had no delusions about who saved others. Besides, Paul himself wrote that he made himself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible. Would you describe Paul as being intellectually vain?

Add to that your fundamentalism, and you were obviously vunerable.

I'm not sure what you mean by vulnerable. When Jesus said go into all the world and make disciples of all men, was he excluding atheists? Or did he mean, go, but only when you are extremely strong in faith? Define vulnerable. Did I have my facts wrong? (Yes, it turns out, as the atheists kindly pointed out to me.)

I wish you had sought the help of knowledgeable Christians rather than taking on those atheists by yourself.

Well, I wasn't by myself. The board was visited by many, many Christians, some of them embarassingly dogmatic, committing all sorts of logical fallacies and unproved assertions ("GOD IS GOD!" one woman shouted, as if that explained everything.) And I did seek assistance from knowledgeable Christians, having long discussions and doing much reading. Most Christians, when asked for help with a question I couldn't answer, were content to shrug their shoulders and hide behind the "God works in mysterious ways" doctrine. According to them, all uncomfortable challenges can be deflected by having more faith. Never did any Christian consider if faith was even a valid means of obtaining knowledge.

You should have realized that atheism is a hungry belief system that practices 24/7 to defeat the arguments of Christians, and they rub their hands in wait of someone such as yourself. I've argued atheists for many years, and they often parade themselves under the banner of parsimony, openmindedness, or default position, or what have you. All of it is baloney, of course.

Yes, I used to hold such sweeping, dogmatic, and simplistic ideas about atheists, too. I used to think that atheism was a belief system, when in truth it is a lack of belief. I thought that atheists delighted in scoring points against believers, when in reality they are simply answering the constant barrage of straw man attacks, unproved assertions, logical fallacies, and outright lies that they hear every day, especially when they boldly wear the label 'atheist.' Some people can't help but think of 'atheist' as a dirty word, and it offends them that anyone would proudly proclaim it.

At any rate, when I read the Bible with an open heart, I became a Christian. When I read the Bible again with an open mind, I became an atheist. Your head-shaking and "you should've" comments mean little to this happy atheist.

I hope Christians read your story, and realize how important it is to learn about their faith before engaging in debates with those who have skilled themselves in these discussions.

Funny thing, that. I actually wrote a novel about my deconversion process. I would love for it to be a bestseller. And for the first time in this thread I agree with you that Christians should be wary about engaging in debate. In fact, if all believers would treat their religion as the personal faith it's supposed to be and then retreat into silence, the world would be a much better place.

[harvey1]

No, I had no delusions about who saved others. Besides, Paul himself wrote that he made himself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible. Would you describe Paul as being intellectually vain?

No, I wouldn't. Paul remained a committed Christian. He said many times that it was Christ who worked through him.

Add to that your fundamentalism, and you were obviously vunerable.

I'm not sure what you mean by vulnerable. When Jesus said go into all the world and make disciples of all men, was he excluding atheists? Or did he mean, go, but only when you are extremely strong in faith? Define vulnerable. Did I have my facts wrong? (Yes, it turns out, as the atheists kindly pointed out to me.)

Well, fundamentalism is a form of idealism that is easily shattered. It was never really endorsed by the Christian faith at its earliest inception. Fundamentalists have opened themselves up to attack, they send out people without education, and they run into people who are waiting in the wings with a little knowledge. All recipes for disaster, which your account perfectly describes.

Most Christians, when asked for help with a question I couldn't answer, were content to shrug their shoulders and hide behind the "God works in mysterious ways" doctrine. According to them, all uncomfortable challenges can be deflected by having more faith. Never did any Christian consider if faith was even a valid means of obtaining knowledge.

Well, I don't know how long ago you walked away from your faith, but there are many Christian philosophers who are only an e-mail away. The challenges by atheism is relatively minor, so I can't see why they couldn't have helped you.

Yes, I used to hold such sweeping, dogmatic, and simplistic ideas about atheists, too. I used to think that atheism was a belief system, when in truth it is a lack of belief.

Agnosticism is a lack of belief in God. Atheism is a denial that God exists. Weak atheism is a belief that God could possibly exist, but the evidence suggests that God doesn't exist. Strong atheism is a belief that God cannot possibly exist, that is, if our understanding of reason and rationality are correct. Even to this day, based on what you are saying, you might have only converted over to agnostism. That's far better than converting over to atheism. (Btw, atheists love to count agnostics as atheists to boost their numbers, but atheists like Spetey are smart enough to reject such kind of false counts.)

I thought that atheists delighted in scoring points against believers, when in reality they are simply answering the constant barrage of straw man attacks, unproved assertions, logical fallacies, and outright lies that they hear every day, especially when they boldly wear the label 'atheist.' Some people can't help but think of 'atheist' as a dirty word, and it offends them that anyone would proudly proclaim it.

Atheism is a belief of a darkened mind. Even though I realize that you no longer see it that way, but it is a rejection of the most fundamental understanding of the universe, and hence it is deeply flawed. In that sense it is a dirty word.

At any rate, when I read the Bible with an open heart, I became a Christian. When I read the Bible again with an open mind, I became an atheist. Your head-shaking and "you should've" comments mean little to this happy atheist.

Well, you've converted over already, Anakin. That's why you would say such a foolish thing. However, I don't say them to mean anything to you, I say them because they happen to be how I see it. I say it as I see it.

Funny thing, that. I actually wrote a novel about my deconversion process. I would love for it to be a bestseller. And for the first time in this thread I agree with you that Christians should be wary about engaging in debate. In fact, if all believers would treat their religion as the personal faith it's supposed to be and then retreat into silence, the world would be a much better place.

I think keeping your beliefs to yourself is true in countries like Sudan, Iran, Syria, North Korea, and a few other nasty places in the world.

[The Happy Humanist]

Well, you've converted over already, Anakin. That's why you would say such a foolish thing. However, I don't say them to mean anything to you, I say them because they happen to be how I see it. I say it as I see it.

mmmmmmMMMMMMMMmm...Converted you have! Lost you are! mmm!

[harvey1]

mmmmmmMMMMMMMMmm...Converted you have! Lost you are! mmm!

Oh, I'm gonna have a hey day in a month once the movie comes out. I thought of reading the book, but I've decided to wait.