Did Jesus commit suicide?

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sarabellum

Did Jesus commit suicide?

Post #1

Post by sarabellum »

As I browsed through a very interesting OP about the "morality of suicide" I was struck with a thought....
Did Jesus commit suicide.....

At first this idea wasn't slated to be an OP for a number of reasons...
Part of me thought it might seem uncivil....
or offensive....
to some...

:D I try not to do that....

But my internal conversation relating to my idea has proven to be fruitful and thought provoking so I decided to let her rip....

First of all it occurs to me that I don't know where to draw the line on suicide....
Is there such thing as a moral suicide....
What constitutes a suicide....
Is suicide by cop techniqly a suicide...
Does mental illness negate ones copability in Gods eye for committing suicide...

People commit suicide for many reasons, pain, depression, feeling to good (manic state) high on drugs, financial gain for their family, or they perceive it is for the better good.....

A suicide mission....
Sacrificing ones self for the greater good...
Is this a suicide?
If you know an action will lead to your demise is this taking ones life?

At first I was tempted to put Jesus mission on earth in this category....
Which is to say that the plan was for Jesus to come to earth and die to fix an imbalance that threatened the occupants of earth...

Do suicide bombers actually see there actions as a self termination or does the divine back story, this idea about the need to sacrifice oneself for the greater good, give them an out....

#-o
Anyway, basic point, I'm not really sure what constitutes a suicide.....
Part of me sees the logic behind the idea that killing oneself regardless of the perceived need is just that, killing oneself....

Further contemplation along these lines gave birth to a new idea....

Jesus's acts on the earth didn't qualify as a suicide mission...
It was a suicide by cop...
Here's my logic....

I'm on a nuclear submarine....
Something has happened to the reactor....
It is overheating and soon we will all die....
We have to do a manual shut down to survive, only problem being that the room with the off switch is filled with lethal levels of radiation and heat...
I voulenter to die, saving everyone....
Is this a suicide?
Maybe not......

But if it turned out that there was two ways to save the ship, say the path that led to my destruction or a newly discovered way of saving us that only envolved pushing a button and ejecting the core.....
If I still choose the path that leads to my destruction, the suicide mission over the logically way of solving ones problem, is this a suicide....

To me Jesus story falls under this category....

Jesus, if the stories are true, knew he was sent to die....
He could see the future knowing full well that certain actions would lead to his death....
He knew who would betray him...
He decided to sacrifice himself for us....

Jesus is also omnipotent...
Why not just eject the core...
Surely your self termination wasn't the only means to right the sinking ship of humanity.....
Why not just replace yourself with a life like copy on the day of your sacrifice...
A divine copy that would achieve the same salvation benefit but not lead to your death....

Additional can a man kill a God....
Can crucifiction kill a God...
How long does that take....

If Jesus was God would any amount of poking and prodding bring about his death...
If he was omnipotent it seems like you could theoretically pearce his side from now till the cows came home and not bring about his death...
Or did christ choose to self terminate....
Letting go of his spirit....

Otherwise it was a pretty quick for a crucifiction.....

Anyway thats about it......
Answer one or all....
:(
Or none...

P.S. I still have not been able to save to a draft and often time my spelling errors don't show up on the spell check, and I'm in a hurry...
For the spelling errors I apologize....
(Lets face it I'm not that smart)

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Post #11

Post by Board »

East of Eden wrote:He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.
Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated. Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God? Did he not know how things would unfold? MLK knew he was a protagonist and a target definitely but he did not know the time or the place. Jesus on the other hand would have or you cannot claim him to be God.

Or wait... did God send him without the knowledge so in human form he didn't know... but then he is God and would have known before coming... but then he made himself forget... but then...

You can justify anything you like but it does not make the myth any more rational.

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Post #12

Post by nygreenguy »

According to the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus and Judas had a side deal where Judas would turn Jesus in.

Sort of makes it a self fulfilling prophecy, dont you think?

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Post #13

Post by Cathar1950 »

I don't see it as a case of suicide any more then I should think any of our kids in the military are committing suicide.
He was seen as a martyr, just like many other dead zealots, before he was seen as some vicarious sacrifice needed by God.
Even as early as 6 CE there were Galileans looking at their fellow Galileans hang from what ever Romans could find saying "they died for our sins".
The sin was not following God and allowing the Romans to rule them.

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Post #14

Post by De Maria »

Board wrote:
East of Eden wrote:He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.
Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated.
Yes, he did.
On the day that John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Coulton remembers King saying as he watched the television, "That's the way I'm going to go.'"

"He just knew it, and he felt it. That's the way he was going to go," said Coulton.

King was assassinated five years later on April 4, 1968.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/01/15/50 ... r-king-jr/

By definition, martyrs know they are putting their life in danger for their cause:
A martyr (Greek: , mrtys, "witness"; stem -, mrtyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief or cause, usually religious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God? Did he not know how things would unfold? MLK knew he was a protagonist and a target definitely but he did not know the time or the place. Jesus on the other hand would have or you cannot claim him to be God.

Or wait... did God send him without the knowledge so in human form he didn't know... but then he is God and would have known before coming... but then he made himself forget... but then...

You can justify anything you like but it does not make the myth any more rational.
Its not a myth. It is documented history.

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Post #15

Post by Cathar1950 »

De Maria wrote:
Board wrote:
East of Eden wrote:He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.
Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated.
Yes, he did.
On the day that John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Coulton remembers King saying as he watched the television, "That's the way I'm going to go.'"

"He just knew it, and he felt it. That's the way he was going to go," said Coulton.

King was assassinated five years later on April 4, 1968.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/01/15/50 ... r-king-jr/

By definition, martyrs know they are putting their life in danger for their cause:
A martyr (Greek: , mrtys, "witness"; stem -, mrtyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief or cause, usually religious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God? Did he not know how things would unfold? MLK knew he was a protagonist and a target definitely but he did not know the time or the place. Jesus on the other hand would have or you cannot claim him to be God.

Or wait... did God send him without the knowledge so in human form he didn't know... but then he is God and would have known before coming... but then he made himself forget... but then...

You can justify anything you like but it does not make the myth any more rational.
Its not a myth. It is documented history.
Not is isn't history.
We don't really know what Jesus might have been thinking, all we know is what later followers were thinking and their thoughts were diverse.
Jesus might very well knew he was pretty sure to get himself killed if he actually attacked the temple establishment that supported Rome.
On the other hand he might very well thought God was going to win the battle like many other insurrectionists.

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Post #16

Post by Board »

De Maria wrote:
Board wrote:
East of Eden wrote:He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.
Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated.
Yes, he did.
No, He did not. He had a feeling that he was going to die by assassination because of what he stood for but he did not know the time or the place. Are you claiming he did?
De Maria wrote: Its not a myth. It is documented history.
No it is not. Care to show us where in the New Testament we can trust it to be Historical? It might get a few names and places right but it gets many wrong and there are no dates or facts that were documented at the time of the event OR by any eyewitnesses. So no... it is not historical.

And you failed at answer my question so I will quote them again.
Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God?

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Post #17

Post by bjs »

The word suicide suggests the desire to die for the sake of dying.

The words sacrifice or lay down his life for his friends suggests a desire for some other good thing that is so strong one is willing to die for it.

If the Bible is true, Jesus did not commit suicide in that he did not desire death for the sake of death. He sacrificed his life in that he desired to save others so much that he was willing to die himself for that cause.

I would have a real problem with saying that anyone who loves some other good thing more than his own life is suicidal.

This is purely my own opinion, but I did not really understand what it meant to live until I was able to love something (and someone) more than myself.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #18

Post by Cathar1950 »

bjs wrote:The word suicide suggests the desire to die for the sake of dying.

The words sacrifice or lay down his life for his friends suggests a desire for some other good thing that is so strong one is willing to die for it.

If the Bible is true, Jesus did not commit suicide in that he did not desire death for the sake of death. He sacrificed his life in that he desired to save others so much that he was willing to die himself for that cause.

I would have a real problem with saying that anyone who loves some other good thing more than his own life is suicidal.

This is purely my own opinion, but I did not really understand what it meant to live until I was able to love something (and someone) more than myself.
Are suicide bombers martyrs and witnesses? Are they willing to lay down their lives?
Is getting yourself killed or killing others the only way?

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Post #19

Post by bjs »

Cathar1950 wrote:Are suicide bombers martyrs and witnesses? Are they willing to lay down their lives?
A suicide bomber is not simply laying down his life " he is actively destroying his own life and the lives of others. He is the one who, so to speak, pulls the trigger. More to the point, the reason a person loses his life is important. According to the Bible Jesus gave up his life to save other people. A suicide bomber gives up his life to kill other people. He could be called a martyr by a loose definition of the word, but he would be a martyr for a bad cause.

Cathar1950 wrote: Is getting yourself killed or killing others the only way?
Usually not. I think that killing others is never the right way. But there are situations, rare though they may be, when giving my life is the only way to achieve something that I consider more valuable than my own life. I hope I am never in such a situation, but if I am I dont think it would be right to label such self-sacrifice as suicide.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Post #20

Post by De Maria »

Board wrote: No, He did not. He had a feeling that he was going to die by assassination because of what he stood for but he did not know the time or the place. Are you claiming he did?
I'm claiming that he knew he was going to be killed for his stance of human rights. I also provided an excerpt of an article wherein a companion of his was quoted as having heard Martin Luther King say precisely that he would be killed just as John F. Kennedy was killed.

De Maria wrote:No it is not. Care to show us where in the New Testament we can trust it to be Historical? It might get a few names and places right but it gets many wrong and there are no dates or facts that were documented at the time of the event OR by any eyewitnesses. So no... it is not historical.
Yes, it is historical and it gets everything right. Do you care to challenge any particular portion of the New Testament.
And you failed at answer my question so I will quote them again.
Jesus knew he was going to die...
Correct.
or was he not God?
Jesus is, was and will always be God.

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