Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

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McCulloch
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Sectarianism proves the Bible isn't God's Complete Revelatio

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

Does Sectarianism proves the Bible is not God's Complete Revelation?
There are over six thousand denominations and sects of Christianity in North America. Getting an accurate count is virtually impossible. If anyone has a reasonably verifiable number, please post the source here.
There seems to be a long term trend. How many sects and denominations existed one thousand years after the foundation of Christianity? Compare that to how many existed 200 and 100 years ago. Compare that to today. Empirical evidence seems to indicate that divisiveness seems to be built into the fabric of christianity. There are examples where even attempts to bring denominations together results in even more not fewer divisions. Group "M" and group "P" propose a merger into a new group to be known as group "U". Some dissidents in both groups "M" and "P" belive that the merger would not be beneficial so groups "M" and "P" continue their separate existence, with reduced numbers. The net result of the merger is that the number of denominations has increased by one.
Many of the divisions between christian sects and denominations are doctrinal. If the Bible was a complete guide for doctrine, then Christian unity would be a simple matter of resolving the doctrinal issues by referring to the one-and-only complete authoritative guide.
Admittedly, some divisions may be simply cultural. However, most of the purely cultural divisions do not constitute a separate denomination or sect. For example the Korean Presbyterian Church near us is in "full communion" with the Presbyterian Church of Canada denomination.
Some Christian groups agree with me that the Bible is not God's complete revelation. The Church of Jesus Christ and Later Day Saints (LDS) aka the Mormons, readily admit the need for further revelation. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that God speaks through the church as well as the Bible. Of course, these examples raise the issue of if you accept extra-biblical revelation, how do you decide which particular extra-biblical revelations do you accept.

As far as I can tell, most Christian responses to the undeniable fact of divisions fall into one of three categories:
  1. The differences are trivial
  2. Our group is right and the other groups are wrong
  3. The divisions show that Christians are weak fallible humans

1 The Differences are Trivial
This one is often expressed as something like, "Yes, we do have differences but we do agree on the essential things such as ...".
For some of the differences, I have to agree that they are really trivial (in fact, sometimes they seem to be exceedingly trivial). But the fact remains that the leaders of the various churches did not consider these issues to be trivial. They "broke fellowship" with their brothers over these issues. Subsequent church leaders have not found the grace to patch up their differences. At this point the discussion generally tends towards point 3.
But other issues that divide christians cannot be construed as being trivial. These would include issues about
  1. Does the creator of the universe wish to be worshiped in specific ways? If so how? When? Which rites performed by whom? Who are the proper subjects to the various rites?
  2. Just how does the Body of Christ on Earth choose its leaders and decision makers?
  3. Should christians participate in war?
  4. Is there a hell of eternal torment for all unbelievers?
  5. In what way should women be allowed or disallowed to participate in the public functioning of the church?
  6. How should the church react towards specific sins within the church? Sexual sins, fraud, false teaching, gluttony ...
  7. How should the church react towards the same specific sins outside of the church
Usually, once agreement is reached on which of these issues are non-trivial, the discussion moves to point 2. If anyone wishes to debate the particulars of any of these issues, please start a new topic for that debate. Sufficient for this debate is the fact that
  1. At least one of these issues is non-trivial
  2. these issues do, in fact, divide christians

2. Our Group is Right and the Other Groups are Wrong
This statement can be accompanied with an invitation to see for myself just how clearly the Bible supports one particular position and a discussion about an evil supernatural being masquerading as a beneficent supernatural being. But, I have to ask why, if the Bible is understandable and complete, do people of good will, thoughtfulness and prayer (to say nothing of almost two thousand years to get it right) appear to differ from others of apparently equal good will, thoughtfulness and prayer and why the true meaning lay hidden and undiscovered until <insert sectarian founder's name here> saw the light. I don't think that it is an exaggeration to say that the Bible is the most studied books ever written. Yet, agreement as to what it actually means seems to evade even those who regard it as being holy. Would it not be valid to fault the authors? I cannot imagine why a perfect loving God would want to writing in a deliberately ambiguous way.

3. Divisions show that Christians are Weak Fallible Humans
To this, I have to agree. The churches and the Bible that they are based upon, are of fallible human origin. God, apparently, is not leading the churches. God is not granting the grace to the church leaders to end their divisions. God's instruction book appears to be inadequate to solve the problems of the churches. Why? Could it be that God is not there? Or is it that the churches are ignoring God and allowing christianity to be laughed at by the unbelievers? Either way, it does not give me much reason to listen to the churches on the very topic of God and what God wants. (Excepting the one denomination which constitutes the One True Church and teaches only the truth from the Bible. I am sure that I can find dozens who can help me identify which one this is :? ).

Edited to change the post from an assertion to be debated into a question.
helpful hint from Harvey1 wrote:Just as a helpful hint, this forum likes to see the threads begin with a main question that the forum participants should try and answer...
Last edited by McCulloch on Thu May 19, 2005 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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We were created to be gardeners.

Post #11

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We were created to be gardeners. So I think we could bring the big three together and plant a tree.
What is their title for this world leader?
Cesare?
and before that King, Pharaoh, gods, and nature.
Isn't the Messiah a one world leader only thing are better when the Messiah is in charge because it is God's Kingdom?
Now the Jews live for that future and the Christians live for his return.
I am not sure any one is going to like it. I think the Christians are really going to be suprised. Jews maybe but a little disappointed.
But myself I have know idea and I don't see anyone else who does.
I see it as a metaphor of hope in the dust of strife.
I see God in everything Good(fits in, makes sense, fulfills its purpose, works) or evil(doesn't fit, doesn't make sense, useless and doesn't work.
But I feel the closest in the smiles and laughter of my children and there tears. My friends and family. a beautiful garden of course.
But what ever God is nothing could describe That, but everything would have to have a sypathetic relationship. God would have to be worthy of worship. Unless God is an alien and he is just superior and rubbing it in.
Now I could, in my human way, picture God after dinner talking about stuff done in His name. Including all the slaugter in the OT and vengeance in the NT. And God saying "boy was my face red".
Now just being a or the creator is not enough gnostics pointed that out.
I can picture God that is God and still not (the) creator.
Maybe Gods been around longer then creation maybe not.
We will just have to see. But what ever it is I have to decide, I have to reason thru it(with a lot of help from my friends, books, civilization, my kids, my plants, all plants, water, food, culture, people, history, science, and some experiments. No person or book has all the answers to everything if anything. We are from here living like tourists.
All we need is to belive feel and act like it is worth it.

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Post #12

Post by trencacloscas »

Humanism is a religion. Just a man-made religion created by men to worship themselves.
????????????????????

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??????

Post #13

Post by Cathar1950 »

Humanism is a religion. Just a man-made religion created by men to worship themselves.
Humanism should be at least the bottom line, the minimal required of being Human. It is not worshiping your self or man. I would argue any worship or religion is man-made. Like we got a choice?
C. Hartshorn or A.N. Whitehead said it nicely. "they gave the worse attributes of caesar to God" Then they complain because no one belives.
God has to be more human then me.

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Post #14

Post by AlAyeti »

C. Hartshorn and A.N. Whitehead.

Two more ignorant perspectives.

What's the point of the reference?

Humanism gives us all of the atributes of Satan.

"Did God really say. . ."

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What's the point of the reference?

Post #15

Post by Cathar1950 »

Two more ignorant perspectives.
Wow talk about narrow minded and ignorant.
The point is we are human.
Believers were always first to call some one else satan. Usually it was just each other. Ignorance has them reaching out to all other ideas and people.
The one thing I admire about the bible is it's open humanism.
I belive we are made in God's image. Even while we try to make God in ours.
Humanism is a good start while biblicalism and traditional theism
is a trite limit.[/quote]

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Re: What's the point of the reference?

Post #16

Post by Corvus »

Cathar1950 wrote:
Two more ignorant perspectives.
Wow talk about narrow minded and ignorant.
.
Just an informal warning. Please note that this is an ad hominem attack and isn'tpermitted in the forum.
<i>'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.

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My apologies

Post #17

Post by Cathar1950 »

C. Hartshorn and A.N. Whitehead.
Two more ignorant perspectives.....Humanism gives us all of the atributes of Satan.
I agree we are both using ad hominem attacks and straw men.
Hartshorn and Whitehead are anything but ignorant.
Pagles in her book "The origin of satan" pointed out how Jews and Christians (Islam also) called each other satan with-in their own groups.
The habit seems to have extended beyond the family.
like the label "liberal' is use to exclude ideas with out considering their merits. I don't know when liberal became a bad word but FOX news sure acts like it is wrong and un-American. All ideas should be open to debate,
critical analysis, and reason. I need to get my book of fallacies out and make a list.

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Re: My apologies

Post #18

Post by perplexed101 »

I don't know when liberal became a bad word but FOX news sure acts like it is wrong and un-American. All ideas should be open to debate,
critical analysis, and reason. I need to get my book of fallacies out and make a list
Allen Colmes would probably give you a nod for that remark, although CNN demonizes the word privatize or 'sure acts like it' and Shawn Hannity gives a nod to that as well.

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Post #19

Post by Cathar1950 »

perplexed101 wrote:
Allen Colmes would probably give you a nod for that remark, although CNN demonizes the word privatize or 'sure acts like it' and Shawn Hannity gives a nod to that as well.
Sometimes I just want to slap Colmes because he doesn't say anything when it is so obvious. And i am a pacifist. Hannity is such a blowhard and so full of s--t sometimes. And what is all this rewriting history that is going on? Watergate, iran-contra and WMD are good things? County was founded on Christian principles(blankets with small pox, slavery, witch hunts)? It use to be every thing was the Jews you can't say that any more so it is the liberals. At least I am not a scientologist. Jerry Springer seems seems to be the mentality that our national conscienceness. From judge judy to cops. Postman wrote a little book about us "Amusing ourselves to death" but life goes on. I wonder if anything good is on TV tonight?
What happened to the Discovery channel? Chopper and remodeling homes.

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Post #20

Post by McCulloch »

We are getting off the topic here. This not one of the discussion subforums.

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