Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[gravydancr]

1. A lot of them feel like it is baiting them.

and

2. Lack of interest in the topic.

3. Don't particularly care to interact with the individual(s) asking the particular questions.
4. Don't have time to engage on the topic.

[Kuan]

Hi Mormonboy, how is your missionary trip going? If nothing else, I hope you are keeping safe and well.

Thank you!

I digress, I cannot see why they wouldn't reply, at least due to lack of interest as their said faith depends on prophetic musings.

Gee, I don't know how many tines a christian has thrust forth before me the supposed prophesy in Isaiah as to their jesus character and just recently the alleged prophetic parable of the minas, where bible jesus is alleged by christians to be the "nobleman" in the story.

You know, I cant answer that cause I personally dont just throw out something without proof. (Im terrible with the OT.) So I avoid arguments where I cannot backup my argument because im unprepared. So instead of making a thread about it, just challenge them when presented with it. Not all christians will throw this out in front of you, but will be very objective.

[fredonly]

Hi Mormonboy, how is your missionary trip going? If nothing else, I hope you are keeping safe and well.

Thank you!

I digress, I cannot see why they wouldn't reply, at least due to lack of interest as their said faith depends on prophetic musings.

Gee, I don't know how many tines a christian has thrust forth before me the supposed prophesy in Isaiah as to their jesus character and just recently the alleged prophetic parable of the minas, where bible jesus is alleged by christians to be the "nobleman" in the story.

You know, I cant answer that cause I personally dont just throw out something without proof. (Im terrible with the OT.) So I avoid arguments where I cannot backup my argument because im unprepared. So instead of making a thread about it, just challenge them when presented with it. Not all christians will throw this out in front of you, but will be very objective.

The moral of the story is that the "prophecy argument" is not a good one for Christians to make to prove their case for Jesus "Christ." While it's fine to take it on faith, if you so choose, the alleged Old Testament prophecies that superficially appear to be fulfilled in the Gospel accounts of Jesus do not make a compelling case.

[notachance]

Just a heads up but I highly doubt any ofthe christians here are going to answer this.

1. A lot of them feel like it is baiting them.

and

2. Lack of interest in the topic.

Hi Mormon Boy.
I am sorry if anybody feels like I'm baiting them. What abut my OP is baiting? The way it's worded, or the very fact that I ask the question?

It's a fact that theists use OT and NT prophecies as "proof" that the Bible was written by God, right? It's not baiting to say that, right? It's just an observation of the real world, I'd imagine.

So if the problem with my OP is how it's worded, how should I word it to not make it sound like I'm baiting anybody?

If the problem is the very fact that I ask the question, then I'm truly confused. If a Christian claims there are prophecies in the Bible, is it inappropriate for me to ask him/her to name one? I understand that one shouldn't badger theists who are unwilling to talk with you, because it's rude, but I'm posting on a website called DEBATING CHRISTIANITY!

Any insight into why my post was baiting would be greatly appreciated. This way I can avoid repeating my mistake in the future.

Regarding your second point, you mention there is lack of interest in the topic. If you google "Bible Prophecy", 1.040,000 websites come up. I'd hardly say there is no interest in the topic. And besides, it makes no sense to say there is no interest in the topic. If there was conclusive evidence that the Bible is divinely inspired how could anybody possibly not be interested?

Anyway, the last thing I want to do is offend anybody, so if you have any tips on how to improve my post, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Kuan]

Just a heads up but I highly doubt any ofthe christians here are going to answer this.

1. A lot of them feel like it is baiting them.

and

2. Lack of interest in the topic.

Hi Mormon Boy.
I am sorry if anybody feels like I'm baiting them. What abut my OP is baiting? The way it's worded, or the very fact that I ask the question?

I dont find it baiting but I thought that could have been a reason.

It's a fact that theists use OT and NT prophecies as "proof" that the Bible was written by God, right? It's not baiting to say that, right? It's just an observation of the real world, I'd imagine.

So if the problem with my OP is how it's worded, how should I word it to not make it sound like I'm baiting anybody?

If the problem is the very fact that I ask the question, then I'm truly confused. If a Christian claims there are prophecies in the Bible, is it inappropriate for me to ask him/her to name one? I understand that one shouldn't badger theists who are unwilling to talk with you, because it's rude, but I'm posting on a website called DEBATING CHRISTIANITY!

Any insight into why my post was baiting would be greatly appreciated. This way I can avoid repeating my mistake in the future.

I have no problem with the OP at all, I think it is a great thread and hope someone replies.

Regarding your second point, you mention there is lack of interest in the topic. If you google "Bible Prophecy", 1.040,000 websites come up. I'd hardly say there is no interest in the topic. And besides, it makes no sense to say there is no interest in the topic. If there was conclusive evidence that the Bible is divinely inspired how could anybody possibly not be interested?

Not everyone has the same view on things or the same interest. I am sure there are some christians here who have little interest in this topic. Its all a 'who knows' situation.

Anyway, the last thing I want to do is offend anybody, so if you have any tips on how to improve my post, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I dont think youll offend anyone, and I dont have any tips really. I would love to discuss this topic but I lack knowledge on this subject.

PS: My "warning" about why no one was posting was just a way to get this in my threads being watched list. Sorry for the trouble.

[notachance]

1. A lot of them feel like it is baiting them.

and

2. Lack of interest in the topic.

3. Don't particularly care to interact with the individual(s) asking the particular questions.
4. Don't have time to engage on the topic.

Hi Gravydancr,
I'm a little confused by your post.

In your point number 3 you say Christians don't care to interact with me. It seems nonsensical to me to claim that proof of the Bible's divinity actually exists, and Christians choose to share it all the time, but they choose not to share it on this occasion, because I happen to be the one asking for it.

Is that what you mean or am I misinterpreting your statement?

I'm assuming that you are not one of the people who don't want to interact with me, otherwise you wouldn't have posted on my thread, so I'd appreciate a clarification.

Regarding point 4, there are theists here who have posted hundreds if not thousands of posts. If they have time to do that, I don't understand why they wouldn't have time for one more. It wouldn't be a lengthy debate, they'd present a prophecy, and it would either prove the Bible was written by God or it wouldn't. End of debate.

Anyway, thank you very much for not being among the ones who don't want to interact with me and I look forward to seeing your clarification of the points you made above.

[notachance]

Just a heads up but I highly doubt any ofthe christians here are going to answer this.

1. A lot of them feel like it is baiting them.

and

2. Lack of interest in the topic.

Hi Mormon Boy.
I am sorry if anybody feels like I'm baiting them. What abut my OP is baiting? The way it's worded, or the very fact that I ask the question?

I dont find it baiting but I thought that could have been a reason.

It's a fact that theists use OT and NT prophecies as "proof" that the Bible was written by God, right? It's not baiting to say that, right? It's just an observation of the real world, I'd imagine.

So if the problem with my OP is how it's worded, how should I word it to not make it sound like I'm baiting anybody?

If the problem is the very fact that I ask the question, then I'm truly confused. If a Christian claims there are prophecies in the Bible, is it inappropriate for me to ask him/her to name one? I understand that one shouldn't badger theists who are unwilling to talk with you, because it's rude, but I'm posting on a website called DEBATING CHRISTIANITY!

Any insight into why my post was baiting would be greatly appreciated. This way I can avoid repeating my mistake in the future.

I have no problem with the OP at all, I think it is a great thread and hope someone replies.

Regarding your second point, you mention there is lack of interest in the topic. If you google "Bible Prophecy", 1.040,000 websites come up. I'd hardly say there is no interest in the topic. And besides, it makes no sense to say there is no interest in the topic. If there was conclusive evidence that the Bible is divinely inspired how could anybody possibly not be interested?

Not everyone has the same view on things or the same interest. I am sure there are some christians here who have little interest in this topic. Its all a 'who knows' situation.

Anyway, the last thing I want to do is offend anybody, so if you have any tips on how to improve my post, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I dont think youll offend anyone, and I dont have any tips really. I would love to discuss this topic but I lack knowledge on this subject.

PS: My "warning" about why no one was posting was just a way to get this in my threads being watched list. Sorry for the trouble.

Alright Mormon Boy, thanks for your post. Lets see if anybody provides a prophecy!

[sarabellum]

Okay I showed up...

Take it easy on me....

I've been bone n up on my knowledge of biblical prophecys...(Lota cool websites out their)

But basically I know squat...

Anyway...
I am going in to this with the idea that "prophecys" in theory are possible...

Which brings me to a question...

It seems by default that some prophecys are potentially true or are in the process of being fulfilled...

For instance...

Regarding the "end times"...(revelations)

It is a scientific fact that life on earth will someday end...
Perhaps this planet will be swallowed by the sun...
Killed off by a meteor...
Death by super virus..

Or maybe we will simply blow ourselves up...
Consumed in a massive war...

Either way it's coming...

Perhaps Revelations is an attempt to describe our eventual demise...
A prophecy about the end of days...

Specific ideas found in Revelations can be compared to our scientific hypothesis relating to the end of days...

It talks of destruction by fire? (bombs)
An anti-christ figure? (Perhaps a powerful political figure plays a role)
Pestilence and disease are mentioned....(Super virus?)
Famine?

So revelations is "potentially" true....(the end will come)
&
May follow a logical scenario of what the end of days would look like?
(Depending on your interpretation..)

Revelations may in fact be non-verifiable...

Meaning...
If the "event" ever takes place (the end of mankind) there is by definition no one left to note that the prophecy was in fact accurate...

Can we factor Revelations out as inaccurate?

I would say no...

What do you think?
How should prophecys of the future be handled?
Or non-verifiable prophecys?

(Authors prayer.... Help me out people! I have a feeling I am about to get my butt handed to me! Please PM me with a devastating argument that will vanquish my opponent )

[Kuan]

I like what you said sarabellum. Revelations is an interesting book, whether you believe it or not. What we need to worry about is not what the book says though but what is actually going on in our present. If revelations is true, then there is no avoiding it.

[sarabellum]

I like what you said sarabellum. Revelations is an interesting book, whether you believe it or not. What we need to worry about is not what the book says though but what is actually going on in our present. If revelations is true, then there is no avoiding it.

I agree...

This does not change the fact that Revelations may be a "potentially" accurate prophecy?