The parallel universe question. Not what you think it is

[notachance]

Ok, so this is not an argument against deism, but against theism. If you don't know the difference, please don't waste your time on this.

Imagine some kind of extremely powerful or maybe even omnipotent creative force/intelligent designer exists. Lets call that entity God.

Imagine he didn't just create one, but two universes, identical in every single aspect, except for one, which I'll describe below.

In our universe, as well causing the Big Bang to happen, as well as fine tuning the laws of physics to specifically what would allow for the creation of galaxies, planets, life and intelligence, and as well as doing the INITIAL WORK OF CREATION, God also intervenes from time to time, possibly in the manner described in your religion. Maybe this God, as well as being the prime mover, also caused the great flood, spoke to moses through a burning bush, saved Lot from Gomorrah so that he could have sex with his two daughters, murdered thousands of Egyptian babies, told Moses that people who worked on Sundays should be murdered, etc. Maybe as well as being the prime mover, and doing all that OT stuff, God also got a jewish girl pregnant, appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, sacrificed himself to himself to make us like him, etc. Maybe he appeared to Mohammed in a cave, (or one of his angels appeared on his behalf) etc.

Ok? That's in our universe. God as well as starting things up, keeps interacting with his creation from time to time, answering prayers, causing people to get cancer and then sometimes causing cancer remissions, making it rain after not making it rain because we want it to rain, making it not rain after making it rain because we want it to stop raining, causing natural disasters like Katrina because he hates Gay Pride parades, etc.

Now, in the parallel universe, after starting things up, he does absolutely NOTHING, and lets things run their course as per the laws and forces he created at the very beginning. No intervention whatsoever.

Now, here is the question:

Can you give us an example of an event that DEMONSTRABLY HAPPENED in our universe, that could not possibly have happened in the parallel universe?

Can you name one event that definitely happened without a shadow of a doubt, which could not be explained in any way other than an act of God?



p.s. In 6 hours I'm boarding a plane to Italy, and will be gone for a week. So I will not be able to respond to comments till I get back.

[Wootah]

Correct. Or a few hundred bronze age barbarians could accidentally write a book like that. All the parts about slavery being ok, and murder being ok, and rape being ok, surely make it look like it was written by bronze age marauding barbarians, doesn't it?

I only think a militant atheist would believe that view of the bible. I am yet to see an atheist that says they don't believe in the bible but understand the perspectives in it.

Either way, as per your ill graced admission about the monkeys typing randomly, the existence of the Bible doesn't prove that God intervened. It's not IMPOSSIBLE for the Bible to exist in a parallel universe where God doesn't intervene.

So, good, we can strike the Bible off the list. Anything else that you wish to allege could only happen in this universe and not in the parallel one?

How would we know it was the book that God would have written?
How would we know he didn't chose that method to write his book?

[notachance]

Correct. Or a few hundred bronze age barbarians could accidentally write a book like that. All the parts about slavery being ok, and murder being ok, and rape being ok, surely make it look like it was written by bronze age marauding barbarians, doesn't it?

I only think a militant atheist would believe that view of the bible. I am yet to see an atheist that says they don't believe in the bible but understand the perspectives in it.

Well, I'm the first one then! I don't believe in the bible but understand the perspectives in it! Happy?

I understand that it's written from the prospective of bronze age barbarians who thought it was ok to stone homosexuals to death.

I'm not saying that if the Bible authors had been born in our civilization then would still believe that. Chances are they would have a worldview comparable to yours or mine.

The reason they had those views that you and I find evil and immoral, is because they viewed the world from a different prospective from ours: The prospective of a bronze age barbarian.

I don't judge. I understand. I don't feel I'm intrinsically better than them. Probably if I was born a bronze age nomad without an education and with nothing to hone my critical thinking skills, and if my tribe leader told me to stone two gay people to death, I probably wouldn't know better and would just obey him.

Don't worry. I understand prospectives. It's not like I believe that those are the words of an inerrant God that transcends the concept of prospectives. To the contrary, I understand the prospective that it was written from: The prospective of a bronze age barbarian.

Either way, as per your ill graced admission about the monkeys typing randomly, the existence of the Bible doesn't prove that God intervened. It's not IMPOSSIBLE for the Bible to exist in a parallel universe where God doesn't intervene.

So, good, we can strike the Bible off the list. Anything else that you wish to allege could only happen in this universe and not in the parallel one?

How would we know it was the book that God would have written?
How would we know he didn't chose that method to write his book?

Exactly! I agree 100%

How would we know that? We couldn't!

In my OP I ask this: "Can you name one event that definitely happened without a shadow of a doubt, which could not be explained in any way other than an act of God?"

The writing of the Bible is not one of them. As you yourself point out, "How would we know it was the book that God would have written? How would we know he didn't chose that method to write his book?"

I agree with you. The writing of the Bible is NOT one of the things we can definitely say without a shadow of a doubt that was caused by divine intervention.

So are you admitting that there are no such things that we can demonstrate are the result of divine intervention, or do you have any other ones to bring to my attention? Maybe the creation of the Koran? Or of the iPad?

[mich]

Ok, so this is not an argument against deism, but against theism. If you don't know the difference, please don't waste your time on this.

Imagine some kind of extremely powerful or maybe even omnipotent creative force/intelligent designer exists. Lets call that entity God.

Imagine he didn't just create one, but two universes, identical in every single aspect, except for one, which I'll describe below.

In our universe, as well causing the Big Bang to happen, as well as fine tuning the laws of physics to specifically what would allow for the creation of galaxies, planets, life and intelligence, and as well as doing the INITIAL WORK OF CREATION, God also intervenes from time to time, possibly in the manner described in your religion. Maybe this God, as well as being the prime mover, also caused the great flood, spoke to moses through a burning bush, saved Lot from Gomorrah so that he could have sex with his two daughters, murdered thousands of Egyptian babies, told Moses that people who worked on Sundays should be murdered, etc. Maybe as well as being the prime mover, and doing all that OT stuff, God also got a jewish girl pregnant, appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, sacrificed himself to himself to make us like him, etc. Maybe he appeared to Mohammed in a cave, (or one of his angels appeared on his behalf) etc.

Ok? That's in our universe. God as well as starting things up, keeps interacting with his creation from time to time, answering prayers, causing people to get cancer and then sometimes causing cancer remissions, making it rain after not making it rain because we want it to rain, making it not rain after making it rain because we want it to stop raining, causing natural disasters like Katrina because he hates Gay Pride parades, etc.

Now, in the parallel universe, after starting things up, he does absolutely NOTHING, and lets things run their course as per the laws and forces he created at the very beginning. No intervention whatsoever.

Now, here is the question:

Can you give us an example of an event that DEMONSTRABLY HAPPENED in our universe, that could not possibly have happened in the parallel universe?

Can you name one event that definitely happened without a shadow of a doubt, which could not be explained in any way other than an act of God?



p.s. In 6 hours I'm boarding a plane to Italy, and will be gone for a week. So I will not be able to respond to comments till I get back.

Imagine some kind of extremely powerful or maybe even omnipotent creative force/intelligent designer exists. Lets call that entity God.

Imagine he didn't just create one, but two universes, identical in every single aspect, except for one, which I'll describe below.

In our universe, as well causing the Big Bang to happen, as well as fine tuning the laws of physics to specifically what would allow for the creation of galaxies, planets, life and intelligence

Now, in the parallel universe, after starting things up, he does absolutely NOTHING, and lets things run their course as per the laws and forces he created at the very beginning. No intervention whatsoever.


The hypothetical universes you gave identified God as creating life and consciousness ( intelligence). Unless you can scientifically show how consciousness can exist due to the known natural physical laws of nature ( identifying God as not intervening), then there would be no universe to discuss, except possibly for God.

Andre

[ChristShepherd]

Ok, so this is not an argument against deism, but against theism. If you don't know the difference, please don't waste your time on this.

Imagine some kind of extremely powerful or maybe even omnipotent creative force/intelligent designer exists. Lets call that entity God.

Imagine he didn't just create one, but two universes, identical in every single aspect, except for one, which I'll describe below.

In our universe, as well causing the Big Bang to happen, as well as fine tuning the laws of physics to specifically what would allow for the creation of galaxies, planets, life and intelligence, and as well as doing the INITIAL WORK OF CREATION, God also intervenes from time to time, possibly in the manner described in your religion. Maybe this God, as well as being the prime mover, also caused the great flood, spoke to moses through a burning bush, saved Lot from Gomorrah so that he could have sex with his two daughters, murdered thousands of Egyptian babies, told Moses that people who worked on Sundays should be murdered, etc. Maybe as well as being the prime mover, and doing all that OT stuff, God also got a jewish girl pregnant, appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, sacrificed himself to himself to make us like him, etc. Maybe he appeared to Mohammed in a cave, (or one of his angels appeared on his behalf) etc.

Ok? That's in our universe. God as well as starting things up, keeps interacting with his creation from time to time, answering prayers, causing people to get cancer and then sometimes causing cancer remissions, making it rain after not making it rain because we want it to rain, making it not rain after making it rain because we want it to stop raining, causing natural disasters like Katrina because he hates Gay Pride parades, etc.

Now, in the parallel universe, after starting things up, he does absolutely NOTHING, and lets things run their course as per the laws and forces he created at the very beginning. No intervention whatsoever.

Now, here is the question:

Can you give us an example of an event that DEMONSTRABLY HAPPENED in our universe, that could not possibly have happened in the parallel universe?

Can you name one event that definitely happened without a shadow of a doubt, which could not be explained in any way other than an act of God?



p.s. In 6 hours I'm boarding a plane to Italy, and will be gone for a week. So I will not be able to respond to comments till I get back.

It sounds like you are describing a Science experiment.
In one universe the experimenter intervenes in a controlled way.
The second universe is the control. It develops without intervention by the experimenter. [God]

As the universes develop the Experimenter observes and measures the effect from his intervention. The control universe insures that he is not observing effects from outside causes.

At some time, the experiment is over, and it all goes into the trash.

[Cathar1950]

Are you saying that it would be impossible for a book such as the Bible to be written in the parallel universe where God doesn't intervene?

If God doesn't intervene then there is no God's book.

I guess a million monkeys typing on a million keyboards could accidentally write the book God wanted to write.

If there is a God then he didn't get the book he wanted and if he did which book in the Bible do you think it is?
I guess He got what He gots.

The book is all too human gods and all.