Is Yahweh the first Non-Contingent god?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

The Jewish tradition was the first to posit the notion of a non-contingent God.

It is granted that today many followers of Abrahamic religions view Yahweh to be non-contingent. However, biblical scholarship, archaeology and other scholarly disciplines have shown that originally ancient Israelite was a polytheistic/henotheistic culture, with a deity that formed the world from a preexisting chaotic state (see Genesis 1). This was typical for the major deities of that place and time period.

Questions for debate:

What year, approximately, can it be shown that Jews began to view their god as non-contingent?

Can it be shown that this view of god as non-contingent predates other, similar notions, such as those posited by Greek philosophers (ie. Aristotle)?

[Cathar1950]

By contrast Aristotle, supposed originator of the non-contingent deity idea, was not born until 384 BCE.

You don't think it would be Xenophanes (c. 570-475)? He's close enough to make it grey.

It isn't even relavent as Xenophanes would not be refering to the god Yahweh.
The Greco-Roman Christian unmoved mover and non-contigent god came by way of Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics and others. According to Harold Bloom it came a hundreds years later to Jewish thought.
If Yahweh were thought of as non-contingent then it wouldn't be Yahweh.

[ThatGirlAgain]

By contrast Aristotle, supposed originator of the non-contingent deity idea, was not born until 384 BCE.

You don't think it would be Xenophanes (c. 570-475)? He's close enough to make it grey.

It isn't even relavent as Xenophanes would not be refering to the god Yahweh.
The Greco-Roman Christian unmoved mover and non-contigent god came by way of Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics and others. According to Harold Bloom it came a hundreds years later to Jewish thought.
If Yahweh were thought of as non-contingent then it wouldn't be Yahweh.

That is right. There is disagreement between P (the Priestly source) and J (the Jahwist source) not only on what to call God but what God is like.

J uses YHWH, which usually gets rendered in English as LORD (via Adonai substitution when read aloud). Yahweh is a more personable God, walking in the garden, regretting, personally closing the Ark door etc.

P uses El, which gets rendered as God in English. This is an aloof being, accessible only via the priests in the Temple. El would never close any doors for anyone.

The Genesis 1 creation story is from P. It refers to El not Yahweh, God not LORD. El is clearly non-contingent. Read the beginning of Genesis. P dates to well before Plato. Jews had a non-contingent deity before then in El.

The unmoved mover of Aquinas differs significantly from the one of Aristotle. Aristotle's world had always existed. There was no creation. The world moved trying to emulate the unmoved mover. Aristotle's god knew nothing but itself and did nothing. Aquinas latched on to this concept to justify the existence of the Christian God but there is not really a good fit.

But to properly answer the OP question. Yahweh is not a non-contingent deity. But El is.

[biomystic]

For the EL of it all, I'd like to add that EL was viewed as aloof or distant because EL was the Canaanite name for the planet Saturn, the slowest moving planet of the seven "planetary" rulers, taking almost 30 years to complete an orbit hence the ancient Near Eastern according to Saturn as a symbol of "rest" from activity. EL was thought to reside in the seventh or "highest" heaven in the ancient's geocentric cosmos where seven concentric shell "heavens" were stacked one above the other above the earth. Thus "God Most High" was EL's title. That Judaism is totally involved in Saturn worship has been overlooked by Christian-biased Western scholars who, like Jews and Christians, do not really want to go there, the fact that Jews are actually commanded in the Decalogue to worship on Saturn's Day in spite of the Commandment against worshiping anything in the skies. "Sabbath" is derived from the Hebrew word for Saturn so it's not like this Saturn connection isn't a primary root of Jewish belief.

With Saturn worship you don't get resurrection theology emphasized as we see with sun god worship where the sun became a model for human life and afterlife. I think this is why exiled Jews in Egypt were looking to reestablish a resurrection theology to save Jewish souls. They found it in Egyptian spiritual ideas which were then given Jewish religious form historically and Greek form intellectually.

[ThatGirlAgain]

For the EL of it all, I'd like to add that EL was viewed as aloof or distant because EL was the Canaanite name for the planet Saturn, the slowest moving planet of the seven "planetary" rulers, taking almost 30 years to complete an orbit hence the ancient Near Eastern according to Saturn as a symbol of "rest" from activity. EL was thought to reside in the seventh or "highest" heaven in the ancient's geocentric cosmos where seven concentric shell "heavens" were stacked one above the other above the earth. Thus "God Most High" was EL's title. That Judaism is totally involved in Saturn worship has been overlooked by Christian-biased Western scholars who, like Jews and Christians, do not really want to go there, the fact that Jews are actually commanded in the Decalogue to worship on Saturn's Day in spite of the Commandment against worshiping anything in the skies. "Sabbath" is derived from the Hebrew word for Saturn so it's not like this Saturn connection isn't a primary root of Jewish belief.

With Saturn worship you don't get resurrection theology emphasized as we see with sun god worship where the sun became a model for human life and afterlife. I think this is why exiled Jews in Egypt were looking to reestablish a resurrection theology to save Jewish souls. They found it in Egyptian spiritual ideas which were then given Jewish religious form historically and Greek form intellectually.

El just means 'deity'. (Ref) This is why when the word appeared in the Hebrew scriptures it was replaced with God in English.

Sabbath derives from the Hebrew shavat, which means 'rest' or 'cease work' (Ref)

In the Canaanite religion, Saturn was associated with the king, who was himself subject to the high god El. (Ref)

The idea of celestial spheres is a Greek one. (Ref) I can find no indication that the Canaanites used this concept.

The earliest indication of a Jewish belief in an afterlife is probably in Isaiah 26:19.

But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

The Jewish Encyclopedia dates this passage around 334 BCE, long after any contact with Egypt.

However, the Temple owning Sadducees, the descendents of the El worshippers of the Priestly tradition, did not believe in a resurrection.

Matthew 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.

Do you have any sources for your claims?

[TheJackelantern]

Thanks ThatGirlAgain... I was going to respond to this a while back, and his argument makes no actual sense in regards to the use of EL in the bible ect. Yahweh, if he were to actually read the bible, is basically a volcano/fire GOD.

[AquinasD]

If Yahweh were thought of as non-contingent then it wouldn't be Yahweh.

So Yahweh might not have existed? You are suggesting that in some possible worlds Yahweh, the Jewish/Christian God, doesn't exist?

[biomystic]

For the EL of it all, I'd like to add that EL was viewed as aloof or distant because EL was the Canaanite name for the planet Saturn, the slowest moving planet of the seven "planetary" rulers, taking almost 30 years to complete an orbit hence the ancient Near Eastern according to Saturn as a symbol of "rest" from activity. EL was thought to reside in the seventh or "highest" heaven in the ancient's geocentric cosmos where seven concentric shell "heavens" were stacked one above the other above the earth. Thus "God Most High" was EL's title. That Judaism is totally involved in Saturn worship has been overlooked by Christian-biased Western scholars who, like Jews and Christians, do not really want to go there, the fact that Jews are actually commanded in the Decalogue to worship on Saturn's Day in spite of the Commandment against worshiping anything in the skies. "Sabbath" is derived from the Hebrew word for Saturn so it's not like this Saturn connection isn't a primary root of Jewish belief.

With Saturn worship you don't get resurrection theology emphasized as we see with sun god worship where the sun became a model for human life and afterlife. I think this is why exiled Jews in Egypt were looking to reestablish a resurrection theology to save Jewish souls. They found it in Egyptian spiritual ideas which were then given Jewish religious form historically and Greek form intellectually.

El just means 'deity'. (Ref) This is why when the word appeared in the Hebrew scriptures it was replaced with God in English.

If you just stick with Judeo-Christian sources you'll never learn their pagan roots which monotheists want to erase from history. Try reading some of Semitic Languages Prof. John Gray's books, like Near Eastern Mythologies for one to get knowledge of how ancient Canaanites conceived of and worshiped EL. EL's Canaanite personality is not that of Yahweh's by a long shot. There are no records I know of of Canaanite EL ever demanding men do this or that or face hellfire consequences. The lower war gods did this stuff because in war you need absolute obedience to commands and like it or not, all three Abrahamic religions are religions of war against other belief systems. Star Wars in religious form. Saturn worshipers against the Sun, Moon, Venus worshipers yet the monotheisms are saturated with polytheism, e.g. the whole Sabbath worship originating in Saturn worship where to the ancient Near Easterners, not just the Hebrews, Saturn represented "rest" from activity as the slowest planet of the seven rulers. Of course Jewish and Pauline Christian sources will not tell you this stuff as it greatly weakens their "monotheistic" arguments but one can find it by going farther back in time, e.g. Canaan and Canaanite cuniform texts existed long before Jewish scrolls were written. Common sense helps too as this is how I figured out how EL Elyon, God Most High got his name by ruling the "highest' of the seven heavens above an earth centered universe.

Sabbath derives from the Hebrew shavat, which means 'rest' or 'cease work' (Ref)

Again, if you stick with the vested interested parties you won't get the historical truth as it goes to undermine their religious authority. Sabbath is derived from the same Hebrew word for Saturn which as I pointed out was known for "rest" in the ancient Near Eastern astro-theologies.

In the Canaanite religion, Saturn was associated with the king, who was himself subject to the high god El. (Ref)

If you're using Wikipedia, look up EL's and the Canaanite name for the planet Saturn.

The idea of celestial spheres is a Greek one. (Ref) I can find no indication that the Canaanites used this concept.

The Greek Aristotelian earth-centered cosmos model is the most well-known but one can infer other ancient civilizations in the fairly close Near East civilizations. They were all using the same seven planetary rulers and the idea of "waters" above the earth and the "vault" of heavens above, several of them, even referred to as such in the Bible. Paul refers to such.

The earliest indication of a Jewish belief in an afterlife is probably in Isaiah 26:19.

It's difficult to compare Jewish afterlife beliefs with other resurrection theologies as the Jewish one about Sheol leaves one with no real desire to inhabit such a place. I think the Jewish religious war against Egypt, Canaan, Mesopotamia and Greece is at the basis of their refusal to give an afterlife any serious consideration in their texts, e.g that one in Isaiah as compared to the enormous volume of texts regarding resurrection in Egyptian and Christian works. Yes, some Jews did believe in an afterlife but not anywhere near the level of interest as resurrection theologists like the Egyptians and Christians. This to me explains why God would send in Jesus to correct this one of several great spiritual errors within Judaism. And it also explains to me why Jews find it so easily to be atheists and yet unlike any other religion I know of, belief in God is not a requirement to be a Jew in good standing within the Jewish community. In other words, belonging to the cult is more important than believing in God.

But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

The Jewish Encyclopedia dates this passage around 334 BCE, long after any contact with Egypt.

However, the Temple owning Sadducees, the descendents of the El worshippers of the Priestly tradition, did not believe in a resurrection.

Temple priests whose spiritual authority did not rest on preparation of the dead for resurrection as did their rivals in Egypt would not believe in resurrection as to do so would undermine their spiritual authority--anyone in the region would know that Egypt's long ancient past dealing with resurrection theology and ritual and knowledge would far surpass anything tribal shepherd religionists came up with--so no resurrection theology per se in Judaism until Christianity.

Matthew 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.

Do you have any sources for your claims?

God's guidance to the right information that comes along in different sources like books like Near Eastern Mythologies and Canaanite certain cuniform texts but mainly I rely on "gnosis", the "ah hah!" realizations that come with varying degrees of inspiration, i.e. Spirit guidance, some revelations literally shaking me to tears as they passed into my brain. Some making me sweat like Muhammad did when he received spiritual visions. It's a shaker/quaker thing that's real. And it imparts Gnosis, knowledge of God in its wake. But just as often it takes years for me to see the connections between these sudden revelations. Book larnin's ok as far as it goes but for Gnosis, knowledge of God vs science of religion you need spiritual contact.

[Cathar1950]

By contrast Aristotle, supposed originator of the non-contingent deity idea, was not born until 384 BCE.

You don't think it would be Xenophanes (c. 570-475)? He's close enough to make it grey.

It isn't even relavent as Xenophanes would not be refering to the god Yahweh.
The Greco-Roman Christian unmoved mover and non-contigent god came by way of Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics and others. According to Harold Bloom it came a hundreds years later to Jewish thought.
If Yahweh were thought of as non-contingent then it wouldn't be Yahweh.

That is right. There is disagreement between P (the Priestly source) and J (the Jahwist source) not only on what to call God but what God is like.

J uses YHWH, which usually gets rendered in English as LORD (via Adonai substitution when read aloud). Yahweh is a more personable God, walking in the garden, regretting, personally closing the Ark door etc.

P uses El, which gets rendered as God in English. This is an aloof being, accessible only via the priests in the Temple. El would never close any doors for anyone.

The Genesis 1 creation story is from P. It refers to El not Yahweh, God not LORD. El is clearly non-contingent. Read the beginning of Genesis. P dates to well before Plato. Jews had a non-contingent deity before then in El.

The unmoved mover of Aquinas differs significantly from the one of Aristotle. Aristotle's world had always existed. There was no creation. The world moved trying to emulate the unmoved mover. Aristotle's god knew nothing but itself and did nothing. Aquinas latched on to this concept to justify the existence of the Christian God but there is not really a good fit.

But to properly answer the OP question. Yahweh is not a non-contingent deity. But El is.

I don’t believe El would qualify either as he was seen as the compassionated one as well as father of the gods, in some places Yahweh is his son making Yahweh dependent upon El. Of course El may have been worshiped as a goddess before he became male.

The idea of a non-contingent deity is largely taken from Aristotle and other neo-platonic thought and could mean either independent or necessary but not necessarily immutable, unchanging or the like.

El, or more precisely El Shaddai, was atleast approachable.

The only way they could possible make Yahweh non-contigent as in logically nessesary would be to retrofit the different meaning of divinity as non-contigent which could be said of any god you choose to redefine.

[robnixxo]

I'm a little confused. What's non-contingent mean?

[Cathar1950]

I'm a little confused. What's non-contingent mean?

As soon as I figure out how I am going to donate 500 tax free tokens for what I believe to be a wonderful question.
I really thought someone would have answered your question, especially those claiming a Jewish deity was non-contingent because "God" or deity for them has been redefined.

I would think non-contingent would somehow be related contingent and the meaning being used.

Independent or necessary would be good description of non-contingent provided we mean either mean by contingent dependent or possible. I think actual needs to be added to both sides of necessary and contingent having both not attributed to God as we see in classical theism.
As Hartshorne explains in his “Insights and Oversights�,
The concept and concepts form a triad in Aristotle’s modal logic where he saw the relationship between contingent, necessary and impossible where “any one of the three is a joint negation of the other two and the negation of any one is a disjunction of the other two. Above all, he saw the relationship of modal to temporal distinctions.�

I will get back after I go to the store and try to explain what Hartshorne calls Aristotle's five laws of modality and where he failed to follow his own best insights when it came to God because of his rather Greek bias which was unwittingly inherited through the Greek fathers and Scholastics by way of Neoplatonic substance speculation lost and reintroduced as seen in Anselm.
Whitehead says that the West received from Aristotle one of his weakest concepts, that of the unmoved mover.