What does it mean to be human?

[rosey]

What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be human?
I cannot help but suspect that at one time in the history of thinking
that people believed that it meant that we were spiritual and that we
could make choices and were capable of aspiring to higher ideals...
like maybe loyalty or maybe faith... or maybe even love.
But now we are told by people who think they know, that we vary from
amoeba only in the complexity of our makeup and not in what we
essentially are. They would have us think as Dysart said that we are
forever bound up in certain genetic reigns - that we are merely products
of the way things are and not free - not free to be the people who make
them that way. They would have us see ourselves as products so that
we could believe that we were something to be made - something to
be used and then something to be disposed of. Used in their wars -
used for their gains and then set aside when we get in their way.
Well, who are they? They are the few who sit at the top of the heap -
dung heap though it is - and who say it is better to reign in Hell than
to serve in Heaven. Well, I do not know that we can have a Heaven
here on earth, but I am sure we need not have a Hell either.
What does it mean to be human? I cannot help but believe that it means
we are spiritual - that we are responsible and that we are free - that
we are responsible to be free."

Joey said this should be a separate post, so here it is. What does it mean to be human? The above is from a Christian songwriter, Rich Mullins.

If we are humans at conception, then abortion is murder. If it is elsewhere, then when? Is it when we can reason? Can make choices?

[ThatGirlAgain]

From Post 9 here:

Ephesians 2:10 (For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

I think you have a poor conclusion here. I don't see your point connected to the verse. Let me go a bit further in this verse for you to comprehend. It said "For we are his workmanship" Human is created by a creator.
...

My emboldenizationin'.

For debate:

Is the notion that we are created by a god the most reasonable and rational conclusion to be had?

The original discussion (see below) was about interpretation of what a certain scriptural verse meant. bambi is saying that the interpretation that humans are created by God for the purpose of progressing to good works is more reasonable than the interpretation that children are not human until they know right from wrong. The discussion is entirely within the context of the intended meaning of the verse. The issue of whether God really exists and/or created people is irrelevant to the discussion. I think it is safe to say that Paul (if Paul was indeed the author of Ephesians) believed in a creator God.

The OP is misguided.

Original discussion in context:

So, one is not 'human' until one knows the difference between good and bad? What is that, about age 2 or so??

Ephesians 2:10 (For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

I think you have a poor conclusion here. I don't see your point connected to the verse. Let me go a bit further in this verse for you to comprehend. It said " For we are his workmanship" Human is created by a creator. And the purpose is to progress "unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The good work is the purpose. But if you're not into it then you might be here. King Solomon said "Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"

[bambi]

Reference : http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/2 ... fic-proof/


They alleged that the creation of Adam is an ‘anti-scientific nonsense’, and God did not create Adam from a handful of dust, like the Bible says. To my readers, see how these blatant liars are ‘wrestling’ the words of the Bible. Their allegation and their pre-conceived idea are not written in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible can you find a verse that Adam was created by God from a handful of dust. What is written is recorded in Genesis 2:7, which says:

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.�

While it is true that God created man from the dust of the ground, the phrase “handful of dust� is absent in the verse! It is conceived it the minds of these perverts. Be that as it may, the information in the Bible is scientific! Granting, without accepting, that there is such a thing as a ‘handful of dust’, whose hands will be the measuring hands for the dust that God will use in the formation of Adam? People who cremate the dead have an idea of how much dust will be left of the human body after cremation. I am sure it is not a sack of dust; but very close to a handful — depending on the hands that holds them. And why is it scientific? God made man from the dust; and when his body dies it decomposes and turns again to dust.

(Genesis 3:19) “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.�



What are the scientific proof that man’s body came from the dust of the ground, as the Bible says? The human body is made up of materials and minerals found on the surface of the ground, and not from the core of the earth. Oxygen, being the most abundant element on the earth’s crust or on the ground, makes up 65 percent of the human body, and carbon, also abundant on the top soil of the ground, is 18 percent, and hydrogen is 10 percent. The 59 elements found in the human body are all found on the earths crust. This is amazing because what the Bible says perfectly match the scientific composition of a human body.



The ignorance of these ‘imaginary people’ in what the Bible says betrays their alleged intelligence and knowledge in science. Of course, the human body is not made up only of dust, but God mixed the dust to water to produce clay. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->

(Job 10:9) “Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?�

(Romans 9:20-21) “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?�

The mixture is clay, understandably contains more water than dust. Who says that the information in the Bible is scientifically nonsense? They are the one’s that are nonsensical, and not the Bible!

The exact proportion of the minerals and materials, if maintained, make up a healthy human body (http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/erarc ... 8Size.html). Excesses in these materials will cause disorders and diseases. Excess of aluminum, for example, and iron, will be toxic for the human body. The proportions of the abundance of the 59 elements on the earths crust, is amazingly represented in its presence in the human body. Who says that the Bible is not scientific?

[dianaiad]

From the OP:

What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be human?

For me at least, it means being able to pee off the back deck any time I take a notion.

Joey, your pets can do that...and frankly, I hope that between you and your pets, they do it more often. Mind you, your comment just reminded me of how my husband taught my sons how not to miss the toilet bowl....

I cannot help but suspect that at one time in the history of thinking that people believed that it meant that we were spiritual...

Many still do.

and that we could make choices and were capable of aspiring to higher ideals...

Yep.

like maybe loyalty or maybe faith...

I'm all with ya on the loyalty, but don't consider faith, in the religious sense, to be such a "higher ideal".

Sure it is; it means taking the evidence in front of you..(whether or not anybody ELSE thinks it's 'evidence' worth trusting) and being willing to act on it. All human progress, scientific, cultural, political and philosophical, depends on it.

or maybe even love.

Sure.

But now we are told by people who think they know, that we vary from amoeba only in the complexity of our makeup and not in what we essentially are.

Are amoeba not life?

They would have us think as Dysart said that we are forever bound up in certain genetic reigns...

Ever try turning into an elephant?

- that we are merely products of the way things are and not free

You're free to turn into an elephant, you'll just have one heckuva time trying to get it done.

Well, one is certainly free to TRY, anyway.

- not free to be the people who make them that way.

Who make what what way?

They would have us see ourselves as products so that we could believe that we were something to be made...

So, what you're saying is God didn't make us?

I don't think she said this, actually. I"m not really certain what IS being said here.

- something to be used and then something to be disposed of.

"God uses me to get y'all into church" seems to fit that first part, while "and if'n ya don't go, it's off to Hell with ya" seems to fit the last bit.

I dunno....I think this may be referring more to Democrats and vote getting, myself, but we all have our own little biases, yes?

Used in their wars - used for their gains and then set aside when we get in their way.

Doesn't God use folks when he goes to waging war?

...y'know, I DO think that most of those stories are more about the winners writing the history.....but what do I know?

Well, who are they? They are the few who sit at the top of the heap - dung heap though it is...

Are we talking about beetles or humans? Either way, that you find something to be a dung heap shouldn't lead us to conclude it is.

- and who say it is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven.

When folks can show me this Heaven and Hell exists, and that their claims regarding their god's wants and wishes in this regard are true and factual, I'll consider such a notion.

Until that time I see nothing but fear-mongering and empty threats of Hell, with empty threats of Heaven in equal proportion.

Y'know, I'm probably (almost certainly) wrong about this, but I didn't get the "It's about us not obeying God and believing the right way" vibe here. Joey, you and I remember the sixties and early seventies, right? Doesn't any of this sound familiar?

Well, I do not know that we can have a Heaven here on earth...

That'll be Northeast Georgia, y'all come sit a spell.

Yeah? You have four seasons (short winter), green things, no biting bugs, sweet weather and mountains that leave just enough room at the top for us to tell that the sky is usually blue? I"ll be there next week.

but I am sure we need not have a Hell either.

I contend there's folks on this planet that deserve the punishment of this Hell. Rapists, murderers and holier'n-thous come to mind.

No, Joey. to the "Holier than thou's,' being in the hell reserved for rapists and murderers would BE their heaven. They could lord it over all those damned souls for eternity. Seems to me that the 'holier than thous' should spend their eternities in the company of absolute perfection.

............think about it.

What does it mean to be human?

Frog legs over a campfire, cold beer, and women, with at least one of those things being nekkid.

nekked beer would be difficult to drink, Joey. You'll have to settle for the frog legs.

I cannot help but believe that it means we are spiritual

While being incapable of showing there's a 'spirit' to be had (where 'spirit' is used in its common religious context).

spirits are, by definition, not capable of being seen. LIke dark matter. Doesn't mean they don't exist, m'friend.

- that we are responsible and that we are free - that we are responsible to be free.

No matter how much disagreeing I've been doing, on this notion, we share one mind.

Yeah, well, me too.

Joey said this should be a separate post, so here it is. What does it mean to be human?

I didn't mean to lead you to think ya hadda, but just mentioned that it'd likely take more words'n we have dictionaries to tote 'em in to get to the end of this topic.

The above is from a Christian songwriter, Rich Mullins.

Never much cared for Christian music, but I can appreciate the craftsmanship involved.

If we are humans at conception, then abortion is murder.

Murder is a legal definition for a form of homicide. As such, your opinion, as valid as it may be for you or me, doesn't comport with some of the legal terms for murder.

If it is elsewhere, then when? Is it when we can reason? Can make choices?

For me, it was that first time I got to smoosh a girl's bare breasteses.

And every time after.

Ahh, men; it IS nice to know that some of you understand the true purpose of women's breasts; to nourish babies...and to turn men into them.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 13:

Joey, your pets can do that...

I said off, not on

Mind you, your comment just reminded me of how my husband taught my sons how not to miss the toilet bowl....

And to think, if I had a husband, I wouldn't still be doin' it But then I'd have a husband, and that's a bit too discomforting for me.

I'm just funning around now, y'all don't get all upset out there in internet land.

I'm all with ya on the loyalty, but don't consider faith, in the religious sense, to be such a "higher ideal".

Sure it is; it means taking the evidence in front of you..(whether or not anybody ELSE thinks it's 'evidence' worth trusting) and being willing to act on it. All human progress, scientific, cultural, political and philosophical, depends on it.

I disagree with any notion that worship of the god of the Bible is something to be proud of, regardless of the evidence that may or may not be available to support such, and regardless of my hypocritical stance in being proud to know I know some of 'em that do. Where a god hates some of my fellow humans simply because there they sit being human, well dangitall, I hate him back.

snippity doo dah, snippity ay

Doesn't God use folks when he goes to waging war?

...y'know, I DO think that most of those stories are more about the winners writing the history.....but what do I know?

Please mark your scorecards at home that here we are, me and Miss dianaiad both of us agreeing on something other than my own ability to dooficify.

When folks can show me this Heaven and Hell exists, and that their claims regarding their god's wants and wishes in this regard are true and factual, I'll consider such a notion.

Until that time I see nothing but fear-mongering and empty threats of Hell, with empty threats of Heaven in equal proportion.

Y'know, I'm probably (almost certainly) wrong about this, but I didn't get the "It's about us not obeying God and believing the right way" vibe here. Joey, you and I remember the sixties and early seventies, right? Doesn't any of this sound familiar? Wink

If ya remember it, ya wasn't there

I retract any part of my statement folks'd be wondering if I was willing to retract, while contending that somewhere in amongst it was some good to be had.

Yeah? You have four seasons (short winter), green things, no biting bugs,

By "no biting bugs" I can reasonably and logically conclude you ain't been here yet. We got bugs can eat a cathead whole and have room left over for an entire week's supply of gravy.

No, Joey. to the "Holier than thou's,' being in the hell reserved for rapists and murderers would BE their heaven. They could lord it over all those damned souls for eternity. Seems to me that the 'holier than thous' should spend their eternities in the company of absolute perfection.

............think about it.

Ah. A brilliant solution you have there.

Frog legs over a campfire, cold beer, and women, with at least one of those things being nekkid.

nekked beer would be difficult to drink, Joey. You'll have to settle for the frog legs.

You can't drink frog legs. Unless ya put 'em in a blender, and that's women's work

I don't now, nor have I ever expected a woman to fetch my drinks, but danged if I ain't proud of it when they do.

spirits are, by definition, not capable of being seen. LIke dark matter. Doesn't mean they don't exist, m'friend.

Nor does it mean they do.

>snip agreement<

Ahh, men; it IS nice to know that some of you understand the true purpose of women's breasts; to nourish babies...and to turn men into them.

hahahahahahahahahaha

I couldn't tell where we was heading, but danged if I ain't proud to know we got there.

[Flail]

From Post 13:

Joey, your pets can do that...

I said off, not on

Mind you, your comment just reminded me of how my husband taught my sons how not to miss the toilet bowl....

And to think, if I had a husband, I wouldn't still be doin' it But then I'd have a husband, and that's a bit too discomforting for me.

I'm just funning around now, y'all don't get all upset out there in internet land.

I'm all with ya on the loyalty, but don't consider faith, in the religious sense, to be such a "higher ideal".

Sure it is; it means taking the evidence in front of you..(whether or not anybody ELSE thinks it's 'evidence' worth trusting) and being willing to act on it. All human progress, scientific, cultural, political and philosophical, depends on it.

I disagree with any notion that worship of the god of the Bible is something to be proud of, regardless of the evidence that may or may not be available to support such, and regardless of my hypocritical stance in being proud to know I know some of 'em that do. Where a god hates some of my fellow humans simply because there they sit being human, well dangitall, I hate him back.

snippity doo dah, snippity ay

Doesn't God use folks when he goes to waging war?

...y'know, I DO think that most of those stories are more about the winners writing the history.....but what do I know?

Please mark your scorecards at home that here we are, me and Miss dianaiad both of us agreeing on something other than my own ability to dooficify.

When folks can show me this Heaven and Hell exists, and that their claims regarding their god's wants and wishes in this regard are true and factual, I'll consider such a notion.

Until that time I see nothing but fear-mongering and empty threats of Hell, with empty threats of Heaven in equal proportion.

Y'know, I'm probably (almost certainly) wrong about this, but I didn't get the "It's about us not obeying God and believing the right way" vibe here. Joey, you and I remember the sixties and early seventies, right? Doesn't any of this sound familiar? Wink

If ya remember it, ya wasn't there

I retract any part of my statement folks'd be wondering if I was willing to retract, while contending that somewhere in amongst it was some good to be had.

Yeah? You have four seasons (short winter), green things, no biting bugs,

By "no biting bugs" I can reasonably and logically conclude you ain't been here yet. We got bugs can eat a cathead whole and have room left over for an entire week's supply of gravy.

No, Joey. to the "Holier than thou's,' being in the hell reserved for rapists and murderers would BE their heaven. They could lord it over all those damned souls for eternity. Seems to me that the 'holier than thous' should spend their eternities in the company of absolute perfection.

............think about it.

Ah. A brilliant solution you have there.

Frog legs over a campfire, cold beer, and women, with at least one of those things being nekkid.

nekked beer would be difficult to drink, Joey. You'll have to settle for the frog legs.

You can't drink frog legs. Unless ya put 'em in a blender, and that's women's work

I don't now, nor have I ever expected a woman to fetch my drinks, but danged if I ain't proud of it when they do.

spirits are, by definition, not capable of being seen. LIke dark matter. Doesn't mean they don't exist, m'friend.

Nor does it mean they do.

>snip agreement<

Ahh, men; it IS nice to know that some of you understand the true purpose of women's breasts; to nourish babies...and to turn men into them.

hahahahahahahahahaha

I couldn't tell where we was heading, but danged if I ain't proud to know we got there.

I think you would agree that women's breasts turn us on and Christianity turns us off....and I seem to have no control over either emotion....I have no point other than I just can't help being disgusted at Christianity and all things churchy same as I just can't help my breast fetish....