Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
What prophecies does he fulfill and why?
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?
Cholland your up.....
Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
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Clownboat
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #11Ask as many as you can... get a general consensus. The OT is their book after all.
Granted, this is not "proof" of any kind I admit, but a good place to start if you ask me.
I think that is better than us trying to tell them what their books say and what their history was.
Do Jews in general accept that Jesus was their messiah? Should we completely discount their thoughts on it? Or is it an acceptable place to start?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #12Well, let's not discount the earliest Jewish followers of the Jew, Jesus.Clownboat wrote:...Do Jews in general accept that Jesus was their messiah? Should we completely discount their thoughts on it?...
Many first-century Jews were open to (even eager for) the idea of Jesus being the Messiah prior to: 1) the crucifixion, and 2) the incorporation of Gentiles into the people of God without any prior requirement to convert to Judaism. And even with these two caveats, many first-century Jews did accept Jesus as Messiah.
Anyway, the problem of the crucifixion is solved if the resurrection occurred, and the Gentile issue is likewise resolved if the resurrected Jewish Messiah did in fact tell Peter that Jewish dietary and association restrictions were no longer required for inclusion into the people of God.
So it seems the issue of Messiahship hinges on whether the resurrection occurred, and not on what Jews today happen to think. Thus, your objection/point is not valid unless you can demonstrate that the resurrection did not occur.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Clownboat
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #13I'm just going to go out on a limb here and claim that people do not come back from the dead after 3 days. Feel free to change my mind, but it seems that my objection point currently should be the default and yours is only based on your chosen religious belief.EduChris wrote:Well, let's not discount the earliest Jewish followers of the Jew, Jesus.Clownboat wrote:...Do Jews in general accept that Jesus was their messiah? Should we completely discount their thoughts on it?...
Many first-century Jews were open to (even eager for) the idea of Jesus being the Messiah prior to: 1) the crucifixion, and 2) the incorporation of Gentiles into the people of God without any prior requirement to convert to Judaism. And even with these two caveats, many first-century Jews did accept Jesus as Messiah.
Anyway, the problem of the crucifixion is solved if the resurrection occurred, and the Gentile issue is likewise resolved if the resurrected Jewish Messiah did in fact tell Peter that Jewish dietary and association restrictions were no longer required for inclusion into the people of God.
So it seems the issue of Messiahship hinges on whether the resurrection occurred, and not on what Jews today happen to think. Thus, your objection/point is not valid unless you can demonstrate that the resurrection did not occur.
If you were not a Christian, you would have the same default objection point.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Clownboat
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #14Agreed. Now could that have anything to do with the income disparity, the amount of taxes they were paying to Rome and on top of that the fact they had to offer sacrifices at the temple for a cost?Well, let's not discount the earliest Jewish followers of the Jew, Jesus.
Many first-century Jews were open to (even eager for) the idea of Jesus being the Messiah...
If I was a poor Jew, I would be eager too. Now, who did Jesus target? The rich or the poor?
Not a good argument in my opinion.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #15Speaking for myself, and probably for most Christians in this particular matter, I am more than happy to say that IF Jesus the Jew rose from the dead, THEN Jesus the Jew was in fact the Jewish Messiah--given that he and only he fulfills the general criteria of prophet, priest, king, and sacrificial lamb.Clownboat wrote:...people do not come back from the dead after 3 days...my objection point currently should be the default and yours is only based on your chosen religious belief...
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Nickman
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #16What verse that applies to the messiah from the Hebrew scriptures says that the messiah would be ressurected? Youll never find one.EduChris wrote:Speaking for myself, and probably for most Christians in this particular matter, I am more than happy to say that IF Jesus the Jew rose from the dead, THEN Jesus the Jew was in fact the Jewish Messiah--given that he and only he fulfills the general criteria of prophet, priest, king, and sacrificial lamb.Clownboat wrote:...people do not come back from the dead after 3 days...my objection point currently should be the default and yours is only based on your chosen religious belief...
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #17Well, there was Zacchaeus who was wealthy enough. And Matthew was also a tax collector in league with the Romans. And Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy. John and James were apparently among the upper levels of society, given their association with the high priest and their family fishing business. And whoever provided the room for the Last Supper would have had access to wealth, to say nothing of the women who supported Jesus financially.Clownboat wrote:...If I was a poor Jew, I would be eager too. Now, who did Jesus target? The rich or the poor?...
Okay, you're entitled to your opinion.Clownboat wrote:...Not a good argument in my opinion.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #18Where among my general criteria--prophet, priest, king, and sacrificial lamb--do I mention anything about "resurrection"? The resurrection was a surprise, by the power of a God who (per the Hebrew text) often surprises.Nickman wrote:...What verse that applies to the messiah from the Hebrew scriptures says that the messiah would be ressurected? Youll never find one.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Nickman
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #19Once you put the crucifixion and ressurection into the mix, of course the Jews didn't accept Jesus. This is because the Hebrew text says nothing about the Messiah being crucified or ressurected.EduChris wrote: .
Many first-century Jews were open to (even eager for) the idea of Jesus being the Messiah prior to: 1) the crucifixion, and 2) the incorporation of Gentiles into the people of God without any prior requirement to convert to Judaism. And even with these two caveats, many first-century Jews did accept Jesus as Messiah.
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #20All of Jesus' earliest followers were Jews, and they did accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.Nickman wrote:...Once you put the crucifixion and ressurection into the mix, of course the Jews didn't accept Jesus...
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
