Where do babies go after they die?

[otseng]

Corvus asked a question in another thread which is an interesting question to debate:

Does this mean children, who, early in their lives are basically amoral, will go to hell if they die? Will babies go to hell because of original sin?

So, where do babies go after they die? Heaven or hell?

[otseng]

I'm actually embarrassed to say I've read Jack Chick. It's a fact I am not proud of.

I don't think he's all that bad. He's a bit controversial, but there are some good aspects to his publications.

Which naturally brings us to ask, is ignorance of the law an excuse?

Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

In the county I live in, there is a plethora of laws. Many of which I do not know. However, I'm still accountable to them all. For example, there is some law that says the grass on your lawn must be well kept (I'm not exactly sure of the wording). But, after I moved into my house, I couldn't cut the grass cause I didn't have a lawn mower. And the previous owner didn't cut the grass for several months. Well, a government worker actually knocked on my door and said I was in violation of the law and I needed to cut my grass!

We also see this in speed traps. Even though we don't know that the speed limit was decreased in an area, we can't use that as an excuse to the officer that pulled us over.

If a child, or, for that matter, a man, is unrepentent because they are completely convinced nothing is wrong with casual cruelty and malice, will they go to heaven?

The standard of getting into heaven is set by God. So, it is fulfilling God's requirements that is the standard, not fulfilling the requirements of what one thinks it should be.

[Corvus]

If a child, or, for that matter, a man, is unrepentent because they are completely convinced nothing is wrong with casual cruelty and malice, will they go to heaven?

The standard of getting into heaven is set by God. So, it is fulfilling God's requirements that is the standard, not fulfilling the requirements of what one thinks it should be.

But didn't Jesus say the only way to enter into heaven is through him? I flicked through the bible last night and came to the confused passage where he says he is both the door and the shepherd. If one cannot accept the shepherd, does that not mean one is incapable of reaching heaven? Is not the theory that a child is innocent until it can be held accountable your own interpretation of the requirement?

I suppose it really depends on what we define as salvation. I was searching on the web and religious tolerance (conservatives, please don't groan as no "liberal interpretations" will be mentioned except possibly Bishop Spong's) and found this page dealing with quotes that refer to salvation:

• Salvation is by faith only: Romans 3:28: "... man is justified by faith without the [necessity of] deeds of the law."
• Salvation is by works and faith: James 2:24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
• Salvation is by works only: Matthew 25:34-45: "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels..."
• Salvation by faith motivated by love: Galatians 5:6: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
• Salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation: John Calvin: "God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation."
• Salvation is by baptism: Nicene Creed: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."
• Salvation by special case: The Westminster Confession of Faith: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." [The document provides salvation for selected infants who die, and for persons who are sufficiently mentally challenged to not be able to understand the Gospel. 3
• No non-Christians will be saved: Rev 20:15: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
• All will be saved: "The idea that Jesus is the only way to God or that only those who have been washed in the blood of Christ are ever to be listed among the saved, has become anathema and even dangerous in our shrinking world." Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong.

If an infant can be saved through being innocent, theoretically, so could a non-Christian.

[otseng]

If an infant can be saved through being innocent, theoretically, so could a non-Christian.

Good point. Actually, I would agree. Theoretically, if anyone can live a life completely free of sin, they can get into heaven without a need of a Savior. But, it's a pass/fail scenario and all it takes is one sin to fail the test. Whether a person commits one sin or ten thousand sins in a lifetime, they are both equally disqualified from entering heaven.

This is why Jesus is both the door and the shepherd. He was the only one to live a sinless life. And thus, the only one qualified to enter heaven. He has become the entranceway for us to enter heaven and also the guide on how to live a life pleasing to God.

[BoatRocker]

Being born in sin and depraved in nature is like being trapped in a burning building. We didn’t choose to be in that situation and are helpless to avoid the fate of certain death. But along comes the offer of help—Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf. We were helpless without him, being completely unable to save ourselves. But now, although we didn’t choose to be in this situation, we can choose to get out. He made it possible for everyone to leave the building safely, but forces no one.

All babies would be saved without question because they are incapable of choosing either way. (This would include anyone who is incapable of choice, due to mental incapacity for whatever reason.) The ones who are not saved are those who actively reject the offer of help. This active rebellion against the will of God is the determining factor for salvation, whether before or after the Cross.

[Angel]

But an infant is too young too even understand christianity, too young too completely understand anything. Adults, if they wish can research Christianity, they have the ability to understand, infants do not. So saying that non-christians adults can go to heaven is out of the question! Just think about it! That would not be logic!

[Corvus]

The ones who are not saved are those who actively reject the offer of help. This active rebellion against the will of God is the determining factor for salvation, whether before or after the Cross.

This would mean non-Chiristians could attain heaven through not being informed of the offer of help. If every person was in ignorance about the offer, would every person be saved because they have not actively rejected anything?

But an infant is too young too even understand christianity, too young too completely understand anything. Adults, if they wish can research Christianity, they have the ability to understand, infants do not.

We may be living in a shrinking world, but formerly a lot more nations were isolated from even being aware of the existence of Christianity. Even today there exist tribes in the valleys of Papua New Guineau who are left more or less to themselves due to the difficulties of access to these remote regions.

Also, you, who have a computer, a comfortable chair in front of it, and library access could easily find out about Christianity. Someone else, living in abject poverty, whose occupation, survival, takes a full 24 hours, may not have the same means. Of course, in developed countries that level of poverty would be rare. Most of our poor are comfortably accommodated.

[aquinas]

Hi all

Based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, (n. 1261), which says that the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God. The Catechism reminds us of the great mercy of God who wants us all to be saved 1 Tim 2:4 which says "who wills everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" , as well as the tenderness of Jesus towards children, which prompt Him to say,"Let the children come to me and do not hinder them" Mk 10:14

With that, it allow one to hope there is a way of salvation for children who died without Baptism. It also remind us not to prevent little children from coming to Christ through the gift of Baptism.

I would say that God have make good plans for them.

aquinas

[aquinas]

Jack T Chick... why would anyone wants to read his Tract

Well... I have read some of his controversial tracts, goodeness, very distorted... I think he can be a very good story teller or maybe just stick to drawing super hero comics, but he should just drop the idea of evangelisation.

Also how he actually slam the Catholic Church, how "Christian-like" is he...
Think about guys, can this guy be trusted with our faith in God? Well I definitely do not think so... any intellectual guy will know the different between Black + White...


I pray for him to come to his senses...

My brothers & sisters in Christ... I pray for you to stay away...

God Bless

aquinas

[BoatRocker]

But an infant is too young too even understand christianity, too young too completely understand anything. Adults, if they wish can research Christianity, they have the ability to understand, infants do not. So saying that non-christians adults can go to heaven is out of the question! Just think about it! That would not be logic!

Anyone old enough to know and understand right from wrong is held accountable, and those who do not know right from wrong are not held accountable. There is a huge difference between 'ignorance of the law' and 'inability to understand the law'. Since Jesus' sacrifice paid for the sins of the whole world the Law was completely satisfied, but those with the ability to choose must do so in order to

I don't know why you got the impression that adult unbelievers could be saved, because no adult non-Christian who is capable of understanding right from wrong and rejects the Gospel will be saved.

[BoatRocker]

This would mean non-Chiristians could attain heaven through not being informed of the offer of help. If every person was in ignorance about the offer, would every person be saved because they have not actively rejected anything?

I trust God's judgment. He knows each person's heart and will judge fairly. Jesus' blood paid for all sin, so his holy nature is not violated by the presence in heaven of those who had no opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel.