Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 9:

I'd have more respect for the wanker...

Come to find out, "wanker" is catching too!

[Bust Nak]

And what, pray tell, is excessively rational about taking having to listen to SOMEONE else prayers from time to time (you know pluralism, which our country is based upon - how irrational?) and making THAT into a form of torture?

Because it's discriminatory. Would it make more clear if the phrase "mandatory prayer" was replaced by "mandatory prayer session?" Because your rationalization can justified forcing someone to go to church as oh you don't have to worship, you just having to watch to SOMEONE else worship from time to time.

[stubbornone]

Well, I have to say that your first post does prove the fact Atheists are discriminated against, 100%.

And definitely by Mormons.

So, finding fault with a wanker complaining about ... having to listen to other people pray in a secular institution that protects the Constitution and, er, freedom of religion not only proves that any criticism of atheism is OBVIOUSLY bigotry ... but an opportunity to take a vaccuous, bogoted pot shot at Mormonism?

BTW - how do you know I am Mormon? Did you see the Abrahamic Harmony piece? Yep, I defend them all, including Islam.

But I am glad to see that an atheist immediately went to using someone's perceived religion as an opportunity to take a personal pot shot rather than discuss ... resigning from West Point ... because other religions being expressed is intolerable to atheists?

Well, more of the same. All criticism of think skinned atheism violates the constitution and is bigotry? And atheists seriously wonder why people take issue with their faith? Try McCarthyism, wherein all criticism of his Red Scare (as opposed to religious) scare tactics meant you were a died in the wool ... Mormon ... er, communist.

Actually, I see the attack, and the comments. The attitude being shown is highly bigoted, and calling people 'wankers' is not civil, and shows bigotry.

The entire OP has one big chip on shoulder, and poisoned the well.

That is interesting, because I see posts like this and see base hypocrisy.

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

We are of course expected to be highly civil and offer reasoned responses that atheist who ask those types of questions never bother actually reading or considering anyway.

However, when someone resigns from West Point because of the AGONY of listening to ... er, other people's protected prayers ... constitutionally protected prayers ... prayer that if West Point attempted to block as per wonderkids 'rationalism' would simply result in a series of law suits from the people who just had their PROTECTED speech unlawfully blocked because some uppity bigot just blocked them by playing victim ...

Well, that is exactly why US institutions that follow the constitution have a little concept called PLURALISM not exclusivity. Not a single atheist can find a single instance of anything denied to this doucher, that was given unfairly to Christians ... not one.

But, dismissing him charging himself 300K by being miopic, self centered, and a serial victim as a wanker?

Well what do atheists call it when someone shoots themselves in their own foot due to excessive pride and self victimization?

Because it isn't bigotry - its an excuse. And the Army is better of without that wanker. Atheism would be too.

[stubbornone]

And what, pray tell, is excessively rational about taking having to listen to SOMEONE else prayers from time to time (you know pluralism, which our country is based upon - how irrational?) and making THAT into a form of torture?

Because it's discriminatory. Would it make more clear if the phrase "mandatory prayer" was replaced by "mandatory prayer session?" Because your rationalization can justified forcing someone to go to church as oh you don't have to worship, you just having to watch to SOMEONE else worship from time to time.

Oh, my prayers are NOT protected by the IS Constitution are they? Freedom of expression is NOT in the US Constitution is it?

Or are we, as atheists tend to do when wrong, simply changing the standards of judgement?

Lets test your standard atheist. I don't drink. I find people who do often get drunk and do very stupid things while drunk. Makes no sense to me. Do you think in ... say the ARMY ... that people drink despite my PERSONAL opinion?

Yep.

So would it make any sense to write a tearful excuse about what a victim I am because someone drank a beer RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!!!! AND THE ARMY DID NOTHING ....

Resign from the Army, through away my career, all because I cannot accept the simple fact that people are allowed to make different values choices than me?

Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

Well, it is - and it doesn't matter if its an atheist or a Christian doing it. So, pray tell, are all the atheists screaming about how rational and logical atheism is, so quick to sign up to defend a kid, and he is a kid, who is calling the constitutionally protected expressions around him ... unconstitutional and ... bigotry?

He's about the most well off victim experiencing absolutely no pain I have ever seen. In short, he's an idiot. And no atheist attempting to defend him, can.

Indeed, even he cannot. He doesn't list a single instance of ACTUAL descrimination, just a wink and a nod ... and all the apparently evidenced driven atheists out there are ready to follow him right over lemming cliff ...

Well, its your choice. Well, people should not expect a whole lot of respect when acting like a lemming while one demands to be treated like a lion. People are not fooled and actions do speak louder than words.

This guy used YOUR atheism to resign as a victim. And rather than be pissed off, you defend him? Rather than distance yourself, you invite a guy in based on nothing more than condemning others? Your choice.

[Furrowed Brow]

This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

Is it even possible to rationalise excessively?

Where will a little humility and being excessively rational get him?

If I was this fellah I would put in for a discharge before he gets the lesson they handed out to Pat Tillman.
[youtube][/youtube]

Yes, I am sure Pat Tilman was killed because he was atheist

which is clearly what dragging Pat Tilman, killed by friendly fire, is all about. THAT was clearly not emotional hyperbole.

My rationalism tells me what whatever that fire was it weren't friendly. This much is true. Either he was killed through draw dropping incompetance, or he was killed deliberatley....presumably because someone did not like him. It seems Tillman was an independent thinker who let his opinion be known, and his opinions were upsetting to quite a lot of folk for different reasons. I am open to persuasion but presently I am of the mind that Tillman was murdered (not specifically because he was atheist, though that was not helpful, but because he was educated, aired his opinons, and thought the Iraq war was illegal....and because he was independently minded.)

However, if the US miltitary is a non bias organisation in which independently minded non religious folk are in no additional danger because of the attitudes of their peers then I stand the point down.

What his rationalism will get him is a career, a free education, and save him 300K.

...so that means he should put up and shut up. It works both ways though. If the boot was on the other foot and an atheist top brass imposed atheistic policies then the same argument applies to religious recruits. They too should expect to put up and shut up and and just accept the free education, and be made to sit through atheisitc propaganda.

And what, pray tell, is excessively rational about taking having to listen to SOMEONE else prayers from time to time (you know pluralism, which our country is based upon - how irrational?) and making THAT into a form of torture?

I'd have more respect for the wanker if he made a case about the military inculcating a culture that tolerate ACTUAL torture and that his conscience was troubled that the culture would allow repeats of things like water boarding.
Instead? "I had to listen to a prayer!!!!!"

Well, I would not call it torture to be forced to listen to someone prayer. I would call it unfair, and it is an example of religion getting above itself.

I had to listen to Beethoven in school as well. Never really liked it, but I certainly appreciate its effect on history and culture. Somehow ... I am not a victim though?

If someone put anti Christian lyrics to Beethoven and made your kids sit through that....on a regular basis....then I guess that is ok too.

Or if the militrary made space so that everyone else had to sit through a five minute moment of humansit reflection to help clears the mind of religious thoughts and dogma, that makes note of why Jesus is not Lord, that would also be equally just I guess. Nothing to complain about there either.

It seems to me the whole idea that the guy has to listen to someone else's prayer is that on some level those praying will be upset to think one of of their own wants to be somehwere else just then. the greater the afront the great the need to make the prayer session compulsory. It is the level of their upset or fear of their upset that is the driving force here. If everyone was fine with an atheistic thinker on the team there would not be a problem.

Welcome to the world atheists, where you have to fit in ... not the world change to meet your self aggrandizing emotionalism that you call rationalism -

Ah the hegemony of religion. It is our world get used to it. Kind of gives the push back meaning.

[Bust Nak]

Oh, my prayers are NOT protected by the IS Constitution are they? Freedom of expression is NOT in the US Constitution is it?

Your prayers are protected by the Constitution. Freedom of expression is also protected by the Constitution. But I am sure these are just rhetorical questions. You are implying the objection raised in that blog violate one or both of these rights. Tell me, how would me skipping church, stop you from worshiping, or affect your freedom of expression?

Lets test your standard atheist.

...So would it make any sense to write a tearful excuse about what a victim I am because someone drank a beer RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!!!! AND THE ARMY DID NOTHING ....

Resign from the Army, through away my career, all because I cannot accept the simple fact that people are allowed to make different values choices than me?

Resigning because you cannot accept that people are allowed to make different values, sure sounds stupid.

However resigning because you are forced to attend mandory drinking sessions and watch others get drunk and do very stupid things, a session that promotes one particlar bland of beer over others, where on duty officers actively remind you that drunkenness makes one better, would a rational and logical choice.

This test of yours isn't analogous to what this kid is saying.

[Goat]

Well, I have to say that your first post does prove the fact Atheists are discriminated against, 100%.

And definitely by Mormons.

So, finding fault with a wanker complaining about ... having to listen to other people pray in a secular institution that protects the Constitution and, er, freedom of religion not only proves that any criticism of atheism is OBVIOUSLY bigotry ... but an opportunity to take a vaccuous, bogoted pot shot at Mormonism?

BTW - how do you know I am Mormon? Did you see the Abrahamic Harmony piece? Yep, I defend them all, including Islam.

But I am glad to see that an atheist immediately went to using someone's perceived religion as an opportunity to take a personal pot shot rather than discuss ... resigning from West Point ... because other religions being expressed is intolerable to atheists?

Well, more of the same. All criticism of think skinned atheism violates the constitution and is bigotry? And atheists seriously wonder why people take issue with their faith? Try McCarthyism, wherein all criticism of his Red Scare (as opposed to religious) scare tactics meant you were a died in the wool ... Mormon ... er, communist.

Actually, I see the attack, and the comments. The attitude being shown is highly bigoted, and calling people 'wankers' is not civil, and shows bigotry.

The entire OP has one big chip on shoulder, and poisoned the well.

That is interesting, because I see posts like this and see base hypocrisy.

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

Look at the language you are using. "Base Hypocrisy" followed by the poisoning of the well by the use of 'WHINEY ATHEISTS"


And you don't think there is a chip on your shoulder??

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Debunking the weeping Jesus:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/vi ... -jesus.cnn

[Nickman]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

He actually listed a lot of them that happens in the Academy. I cannot vouch for that since I have never attended the Academy. The real military is not like that. In basic, tech school, and other military education there does tend to be some favoritism among the religious. Since I have been active for over 10 years I have never been discriminated on in the military.

Here is his list:
unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation.

Examples of these policies include mandatory prayer, the maintenance of the 3rd Regiment Shield, awarding extra passes to Plebes who take part in religious retreats and chapel choirs, as well as informal policies such as the open disrespect of non-religious new cadets and incentivizing participation in religious activities through the chain of command

They have only begrudgingly given us a pitifully inadequate budget, continue to refuse to list us on their website, and one of their staff has openly laughed at the idea that we could organize a conference or even produce club t-shirts for our members.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

Did you go to the link he provided called "mandatory prayer"? That might shed a little light.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

He never says this once. What he does say is that the Academy is misusing its power and showing favoritism, which is wrong especially in a organization that is supposed to uphold the religious liberty outlined in the Constitution.

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Your right and wrong. It is not the military that is supporting one religion over another, but it is the Commanding Officers and the Enlisted leaders. The DOD is neutral on what you are supposed to believe and it doesn't encourage anyone to have faith or not, or to adopt any type of affiliation with any organization.

When it comes down to chain-of-command, however, there is the potential for misuse of power in the hands of someone religious. Again, I have never been discriminated, yet I have received emails from superiors in the form of daily Jesus devotionals and the like. I have never seen anything coming from the DOD. We actually have buildings dedicated to the practice of Christianity, Wicca, Islam, all in the same building.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

The article has nothing to do with combat. It has to do with the discrimination found in the United States Military Academy which is thousands of miles away from combat.

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

He is not asking for everyone's faith to be tore down. He is asking that the school would not show favoritism and have the same tolerance across the board. Calling him a wanker and not trying to even understand his position shows your intolerance as well.

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

That is why there are people out there who are the heroes because someone has to get the word out and show the problem. Just like Martin Luther King, Martin Luther, Susan B Anthony, Joseph Smith, and many others through history. If we never make a stand for our religious liberties or non-religious liberties then the majority will step all over us. Coming from a mormon, I would expect a little bit more understanding and compassion since you come from a persecuted church.

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

The Army is there not to win wars. Our motto is not to have to go to war but to keep the peace. The DOD is here to provide safety to its nation. Now if going to war is required the we will, but that is the last resort, unless your from the Bush family then you make war.

I think you have a lot to learn about humility and being able to see others views instead of just yours.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

The last thing we need in combat is the religious trying to proselytize and the intolerance from such members. We also don't need favoritism in the AOR. This brings down moral and the mission is then degraded.

[Nickman]

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

We have to deal with every religion saying that their god is the source of absolute morality and we are immoral. So yes we point out his immorality.